£129 ha for Wales!
- Thread starter SilliamWhale
- Start date
Penmoel
Member
You really have no idea how the Welsh system was set up, go away and do some homework, come back and comment when you understand how Welsh historic levels were set, also why or how anyone could have applied to national reserve or bought and sold entitlements thereafter.
When in England, you start to pay the same rate to all grades of land and to every acre on the same rate then you may even be qualified to comment.
Untill such time your comments carry very little credibility.
IANTO
Member
I struggle to understand why http://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?members/5961/ is so concerned with something that does not involve him personally, unless he believes he gain some commercial advantage.
And by the same token, every other member from Wales who is affected, can tell you to bugger off, and ignore your posts.
They do not add anything to a discussion by those affected, who should be able to discuss it without your unwanted, repetitive comments (You have nothing new to say, and just repeat yourself.).
Ignore the bugger.
IANTO
I know about the national reserve cos we applied for some from it and got it
You find where I have said that all grades of land should get the same
I have asked why you think the boys on hill shouldn't get as much
I have also asked what the payment is for
I have said that its not your money you have not earned it, its just given to you cos of what you was doing at the time
Perhaps you should think a bit more about what you are saying cos all it sounds like to me is we have always had the money so we always should
If they went to one level of payment in England I would lose out and I would be pee'd off, I like the sub payment and will claim as much as I can but what I claim isn't half what you said you have lost, How the hell much were you getting in the first place then no wonder you are not happy nor would I be
So we are not allowed to comment on here about things that happen in other country's now then ?
better remember that
Done
I think you couldn't be more wrong.
Those previous schemes were wholly production linked..............to farmers who earned Wales's Euros.
IANTO
Member
I think you couldn't be more wrong.
Those previous schemes were wholly production linked..............to farmers who earned Wales's Euros.
Ignore him.
All he produces is "bulls**t". Either he is extremely ignorant as he has demonstrated, time after time on this thread, in which case he is not qualified to comment, or he is being deliberately provocative.
If payments were linked to "bulls**t" produced, he would be at the top of the range.
Ianto
SilliamWhale
Member
I think it was wrong in year one as well. Its just became more wrong as the years have passed. It would have been quite possible to change the system in 2005.
Yes the euros in the pot were earned by farmers who kept stock - I don't know why this gave them a golden ticket for 10 years subsidy based on it though. There are also real farmers who didn't get much as well.
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SilliamWhale
Member
This is the truth. It was an investment amply rewarded for many years and I don't blame farmers for taking it but I am scratching my head as to why farms are still paid based on how many cattle or sheep they may have claimed for in 2003 and now they may have none, but still have a payment.
Do you get paid the same amount from the mart each year come what may? No.
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IANTO
Member
William.
Would you care to elaborate?
Historic payments, reflected historic production during the base years, and there was an appeal mechanism for "force majeure" which had affected production during the base years.
My opinion was that it was right in year one, but agree that over the years it has led to anomalies.
Historic Entitlements were allocated on the basis of production, and what could be fairer at the time, than "You get out what you have put in."?
I wish that WAG had provided examples of how the various options would affect various existing claimants.
I am getting questions, that I cannot give an answer to, on how each particular option would affect an individual Farm Business.
Take the case of a Dairy Farm who run a pedigree herd.
Parents have handed over control to their two sons, but still rely on the farm for their income.
The original holding was over 200 acres, but they rented another 800+ acres from year to year.
Historic SFP due to purchased Milk Quota, that was stacked on the land they owned, was over 4000 Euros a hectare.
A few years ago, they purchased another holding, and total owned acreage is over 450 acres, and the total farmed is with land, mainly by now on FBT close to 1500 acres.
They employ 6 full time staff, and their married children also work in the business.
In total there are 11 families whose livelihood depend on this one holding.
They also provide work for contractors etc.
Without SFP they would make a loss practically every year.
Profits come from a Pedigree Herd Reduction Sale every 2 or 3 years.
Unlike others on this thread, they have "put all their eggs in the farming basket" and have not diversified into say "Holiday Lets", "Contracting" or "On Farm Restaurants" etc., whether funded originally by SFP or not.
Would anyone care to produce figures of how their current SFP of approx. Euro 320K on approx. 200 Hectares of owned land will translate into the various suggested options.
I have no personal axe to grind, as all my entitlements were purchased initially from my own personal resources, and by reinvesting SFP Receipts, Trading up, and introducing more funds from personal resources, my SFP per hectare is well above the average, and in due course my SFP income will reduce drastically.
"Se la vie". It will have enabled me to do what I set out to do, and ensure that the remaining part of an estate, that has been owned by connected persons since at least 1650 remains in the family, while I live.
Payments are not intended to subsidise production, and I doubt anyone will disagree.
They are I understand meant to support "rural" communities, and my view should be looked at as say "the flip side of VAT."
VAT is a mechanism for collecting income that is devolved by HMRC to VAT registered businesses.
SFP should be looked at as a means of distributing funds to the local community, etc., and most of SFP receipts are recycled in one way or another, and provide employment, and slow down Rural Depopulation.
Does capping Payments on X Hectares, regardless of the number who derive their living, or a large part of their income, from a particular holding reflect this?
I have no answers only questions, and perhaps whatever happens, at the end of the day my income from SFP or whatever it will be called in due course will be reduced drastically, (and I accept that) I may be able to look at the bigger picture, better than most.
IANTO
llamedos
New Member
Forgive me if this has already been covered in here, it may not even be relevant. @IANTO
http://gov.wales/consultations/environmentandcountryside/basic-payment-scheme-proposals/?lang=en
http://gov.wales/consultations/environmentandcountryside/basic-payment-scheme-proposals/?lang=en
SilliamWhale
Member
The first thing your example farmers need is a decent accountant Ianto. If they are losing that much they need to rethink. Its a simple as that.
banjo
Member
- Location
- Back of beyond
I'm not being personal here, but tough sh!t!
You had the chance to bank that money or speculate with it, many of us have had nothing to bank without a second job.
You decided to put all your eggs in one basket, no one forced you to.
When the going was good, it was f**k every one else and I actualy remember one big farmer down our way in the pub pee'd shouting to the rest of us to go out and earn his sfp for him, we'd just come back from work and it rubbed a lot of people up the wrong way. Many own houses in town to save driving home drunk, the rest of us can barely aford to have one at all.
I use to direct drill Linseed for a farmer every year and he never did cut anything all he had to do was make an attempt at cutting itI think you couldn't be more wrong.
Those previous schemes were wholly production linked..............to farmers who earned Wales's Euros.
He claimed IACS payment on it every year not sure how much it was but I think it was more than £200/acre and he never produced any linseed of that land
so now you tell me how was that production related ?
If you want to throw insults about you carry on son don't bother me none
Difficult to see how it could be any less fair than the last decade.
Why weren't potato & veg growers given any entitlements?
Why did dairy farmers end up with £500/ ha?
Think I might mount a legal challenge. £1 million/ ha for me, and f**k all for everybody else sounds reasonable compensation for the last 10 years.(attempted sarcasm).
Why weren't potato & veg growers given any entitlements?
Why did dairy farmers end up with £500/ ha?
Think I might mount a legal challenge. £1 million/ ha for me, and f**k all for everybody else sounds reasonable compensation for the last 10 years.(attempted sarcasm).
Penmoel
Member
Why harp back to that again, your mate silliam tells you its gone but you wont be a winner in the new scheme either
. At least no more than I am a loser. The last decade was fair in the way it was set up there was always meant to be a national reserve for new starters , indeed entitlements falling foul of the use age rule went into the pot, just that no one knew how to get them out.
Potato and veg were not entitled to SFP nor pig producers.
Dairy farmers are generally quite intensive so had high payments per ha, one of the highest I have seen was actually a beef farmer 1.2ha with a shed full of fattening cattle worth over £4,000.
The sarcasm don't work either.
All these schemes are there for our benefit, it is up to each individual business to set their circumstances such that you can gain maximum benefit from each scheme. Under the old scheme we had bought SC quota Sheep quota, we have bought and sold entitlements, rented land and naked acres to maximise payment.Under the new scheme, again we will look to maximise what is available to us, be that initially trying to influence policy and being involved in the discussion down to rearranging the business to fit what is on offer.
Just the same as trying to gain access to pillar 2 money we will do the same. It even comes down to trying to enter bloody Glastir to recoup our HLCA money. It has always been the same since the days of farm capital grants, AHDS and FHDS. Nothing wrong in that, don't gripe that you did not get a share.
Its just that at the moment despite what silliam says we are looking at losing out big time
Dunno, managed to buy a few entitlements over the years, have been getting £60/ acre..........next year will be getting £50/acre.......no great change.Not as much of a change as in 2005 when I lost 75% of my entitlements.