DECC to Cut Feed In Tariff By 87% !!!!

Feldspar · Aug 28, 2015

fudge said:
Surprisingly I agree with you. I am disappointed that combatting climate change is so low down the list of UK government priorities. In my view for all the talk of deficit reduction we are one of the few countries on the planet which can afford to do something about this problem. Although the feed in tariff arrangement was,as you rightly point out, was a very clumsy policy some kind of government guidance will be need if we are to stop using fossil fuels. If this question is left to the "market" the speed at which fossil fuels are exploited will increase. Many would say "so what" climate change is a done deal, but I think we should continue to at least explore the alternatives.

FiTs were overly generous in some areas and had some significant design flaws which I think have been highlighted in this latest response. However, I am quite sad when the government decide to withdraw money from things like home insulation in the name of 'reducing bills' when it's a measure that unambiguously saves money and properly targeted helps some of the poorest households. The way that fracking and wind are treated is pretty appalling IMO too. It's all about localism for wind with a system designed to allow a small but loud minority halt things, but for fracking things must be pushed through and decided at a national level if the locals want to consider things properly. It would be one thing if fracking was super popular with the public and wind was not, but fracking hit an all time low in the latest public opinion tracker surveys. Wind was so popular (hovering around the 65-70% mark) that the government have decided to stop asking the wind popularity question because it only serves to highlight their hypocrisy.

I think progress, or lack thereof, on climate change this year in Paris will be a defining moment for the human race at large. A lack of meaningful progress will I think back up the idea that the human race could be sufficiently flawed that it could sleep walk its way towards a species threatening event. For those who think that's melodramatic, take a look at the guesses by the experts in this area of the probability of a species ending event occurring in the next century. Climate change is listed as one of the possible candidate causes. Look at the thoughts of Sir Martin Rees on Youtube for a start.

kneedeep · Aug 28, 2015

"Guesses by experts"

Hmm.

Feldspar · Aug 28, 2015

kneedeep said:
"Guesses by experts"

Hmm.

For what it's worth, I think this general malaise that seems to be spreading where people devalue the work of specialists and elevate their own ignorance to an equivalent level is pretty saddening. Just saying.

http://thefederalist.com/2014/01/17/the-death-of-expertise/

farmerdan · Aug 28, 2015

I've got an application for 225kw waiting to be Validated by planning! Looks like it will be tight!

kneedeep · Aug 28, 2015

I've got a small 10kw,ready to sign up.
Doubts????

fudge · Aug 28, 2015

Feldspar said:
FiTs were overly generous in some areas and had some significant design flaws which I think have been highlighted in this latest response. However, I am quite sad when the government decide to withdraw money from things like home insulation in the name of 'reducing bills' when it's a measure that unambiguously saves money and properly targeted helps some of the poorest households. The way that fracking and wind are treated is pretty appalling IMO too. It's all about localism for wind with a system designed to allow a small but loud minority halt things, but for fracking things must be pushed through and decided at a national level if the locals want to consider things properly. It would be one thing if fracking was super popular with the public and wind was not, but fracking hit an all time low in the latest public opinion tracker surveys. Wind was so popular (hovering around the 65-70% mark) that the government have decided to stop asking the wind popularity question because it only serves to highlight their hypocrisy.

I think progress, or lack thereof, on climate change this year in Paris will be a defining moment for the human race at large. A lack of meaningful progress will I think back up the idea that the human race could be sufficiently flawed that it could sleep walk its way towards a species threatening event. For those who think that's melodramatic, take a look at the guesses by the experts in this area of the probability of a species ending event occurring in the next century. Climate change is listed as one of the possible candidate causes. Look at the thoughts of Sir Martin Rees on Youtube for a start.

You should not be too pessimistic Felspar. If it does not happen in Paris it will happen sometime. My own children think I'm deluded even engaging with a bunch of farmers on topics such as this! One day a more enlightened generation will have their turn, although I concede they may well have moved to some place with a better climate.

Will Wilson · Aug 28, 2015

Not very inspiring if you want to build an AD plant either.

They are considering limiting the number of plants built (across the whole sector) to about 20 pa.

89 were built in 2014 alone.

The baby and the bathwater.

Will

Clive · Aug 28, 2015

Will Wilson said:
Not very inspiring if you want to build an AD plant either.

They are considering limiting the number of plants built (across the whole sector) to about 20 pa.

89 were built in 2014 alone.

The baby and the bathwater.

Will

AD plants are potentially very damaging to UK ag IMO - silly rents being paid and soil destroyed is not something that should not really be subsidised IMO

Bob · Aug 28, 2015

farmerdan said:
I've got an application for 225kw waiting to be Validated by planning! Looks like it will be tight!

Surely it will be impossible, you need planning and Grid Connection in place by 1st October otherwise you will be looking at a tariff of 4.5p.

The only Turbines now which will pay a decent return is a 1.5MW right at the top of the banding, on a decent site £600,000 per year will still be possible

Will Wilson · Aug 28, 2015

Understood,

I don’t think the industry makes nearly enough noise about the advantages of AD in mixed farming systems. The tariffs have fuelled the growth of plants which might not be the best fit for the long term uptake of AD. There arent enough 'muddy boots' people extoling its virtues to Uk ag.

Having said that they have bought investment and driven technology (Bock only exists because of AD) which will benefit the wider community. It’s also worth noting that AD is no more subsidised than industry which producing fossil fuels,e.g North Sea Oil- mostly through tax breaks.

Remember farming is also subsidised.

I would also point out that anything which diversifies a farm income away from volatile comodity pricing has got to be a good thing.

As for soils I would agree in some respects, there will be good and bad farmers in AD as well as in cereal production, I would also mention the value of the digestate going onto the fields.

I think farming is an industry which stands still but an industry which constantly challenges itself, AD is a challenge to some, an opportunity to others.

will

spin cycle · Aug 28, 2015

what happens when the lights go out?....grid on a knife edge in cold weather now?

farmerdan · Aug 28, 2015

Bob said:
Surely it will be impossible, you need planning and Grid Connection in place by 1st October otherwise you will be looking at a tariff of 4.5p.

The only Turbines now which will pay a decent return is a 1.5MW right at the top of the banding, on a decent site £600,000 per year will still be possible

I've already got the Grid Connection Offer detailing the contestable and non contestable prices, so I think thats a firm offer?

The current Solar up to 250kw rates (9.21p) remain the same in the next quarter (Oct 1st - Dec 31), so don't I need planning to come back so I can pre-register before Dec 31??

spin cycle · Aug 28, 2015

Clive said:
AD plants are potentially very damaging to UK ag IMO - silly rents being paid and soil destroyed is not something that should not really be subsidised IMO

bit like intensive arable farming or outdoor pigs then?....anything that takes land out of food production is good IMO......we can import food easier than electric

Sandy · Aug 28, 2015

farmerdan said:
I've got an application for 225kw waiting to be Validated by planning! Looks like it will be tight!

I would pull it out and cut you're losses now

Bloders · Aug 28, 2015

spin cycle said:
bit like intensive arable farming or outdoor pigs then?....anything that takes land out of food production is good IMO......we can import food easier than electric

Hows that. Importing electric is done with lengths of copper from other countries, which are there.
Importing food is done with container ships, which surely have a bigger carbon footprint?

Id rather the lights out than hungry if i had to choose.

Moving around the topic, in particular, i think the RHi has been abused. I know of people buying log driers, and just running them with the doors open to consume energy for the RHi payment - legally wrong, and also ethically wrong.
I also know of an installation where they have fitted underfloor heating to the wood store. The boiler is to heat buildings and cottages. However, the chip doesnt even sit on the heated floor, and the building is open ended.

Yes, I know IF there is an inspection, they will be told off, but really. What makes people think its reasonable and fair to exploit a scheme in these circumstances.

As been said before. If running a business on subsidies, it must always be remembered that the subsidies can be withdrawn. we installed a log boiler on the decision basis that it was a good investment with or without RHi.
I acknowledge it is a completely different matter for solar famrs and AD plants, though similar "worst case risk assesments" must be undertaken, surely?

Fuzzy · Aug 28, 2015

Just out of interest - Assume a 250kw wind turbine
Installed 5 years ago
Installed last year
Installed this year
Installed next year

How much would you get paid (ballpark number) for electricity in each example ?

Goweresque · Aug 29, 2015

Will Wilson said:
It’s also worth noting that AD is no more subsidised than industry which producing fossil fuels,e.g North Sea Oil- mostly through tax breaks.

I'm sorry but thats nonsense. Fossil fuel production is highly taxed, far more highly taxed than the profits made from renewables, which themselves come from a direct cash subsidy from energy users, without with no-one would install the units in the first place. Fossil fuel production started entirely without government subsidy, has never received a government subsidy, has paid vast sums to the UK exchequer, and would exist in the absence of any government at all. The same cannot be said of renewables.

After all the Scots were keen to get hold of the oil industry as a source of tax revenue, not as a net cost to their economy. If oil production in the North Sea were as heavily subsidised as renewables (net cost 3-4bn a year I think) why were the Scottish people told it would pay for just about everything anyone could bother to name during the referendum campaign, and why were they so keen to make sure UK energy users continued to pay subsidies to Scottish wind farms?

farmerdan · Aug 29, 2015

Sandy said:
I would pull it out and cut you're losses now

I think it's still possible isn't it?

It's waiting to be validated, so assuming it is validated by mid September, that should give me a target determination date of mid November..... I already have the grid offer, so I have between mid November and Dec 31st to pre register if I do get planning?

Aceface · Aug 29, 2015

http://platformlondon.org/p-publications/energy-subsidies-submission/ http://www.carbonbrief.org/blog/2013/11/fossil-fuel-subsidies-and-decarbonisation/

roscoe erf · Aug 29, 2015

spin cycle said:
what happens when the lights go out?....grid on a knife edge in cold weather now?

id rather be cold than hungry

DECC to Cut Feed In Tariff By 87% !!!!

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100% I’ve had enough of farming!

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