New tenancy

New Puritan · Oct 5, 2015

Hello,
Go easy on me please, I'm new...
I've been offered a FBT on an 80 acre organic cereal farm. I'm not currently employed in agriculture, but I'm up the supply chain and have worked in various connected things since leaving school, and (for what it's worth) I did a degree in agriculture some time ago.
I've a few questions, which I'm asking all sorts of people all over the place, not least the current farmer, but if anyone here has useful advice then please share.

Is it possible to earn a living from 80 acres of cereals? There's no accomodation on site so I would stay where I am (nearby), but have a mortgage and a family to feed.
It's in Sussex. Anyone have any idea of what a fair rent would be? Or, to put it differently, what would make a difference to the rent up or down that I should be alert to?
The current farmer of the land owns it, and would become my landlord. He wants to retire. Not wishing him away (already), but if he were to die, can a FBT be ended at short notice by whoever inherits his estate?

I'm sure I will think of many more questions. This is something I have always wanted to do, and it has been offered to me almost out of the blue. I'm enthusiastic, have loads of ideas and a reasonable amount of practical knowledge and helpful friends, but nevertheless it's a bit of a step into the unknown for me.

Any advice would be hugely appreciated - thanks.

CORNFLAKE · Oct 6, 2015

A great opportunity so go for it but don't give your job up as you will struggle to make enough money to live.

Thick Farmer · Oct 6, 2015

You should be able to grow 80 acres of cereals as a hobby along side your day job.

wasted years · Oct 6, 2015

You will need to find a niche to make 80 acres pay by itself, breakfast cereal springs to mind. Rent level will be by comparables i suppose but you could link it to the price of your output? As far as I know (as a tenant myself) my FBT carries on even if my landlady dies, one of the points about FBT's is that there is the flexibility to put whatever both parties can agree to in it, so you may want to have a clause in their that ensures the tenancy carries on if the owner dies.

gone up the hill · Oct 6, 2015

If its an organic farm and has to stay as an organic farm then you will need to be a very good farmer to make it pay..

At current prices for conventional crops you will lose money unless your paying a token rent!

New Puritan · Oct 6, 2015

Okay, thanks everyone. You're confirming what I suspected in terms of whether 80 acres is sufficient to earn a living.

Okay, so next question, how much time will it take up if I keep my day job? Really? Clearly I could spend 365 days a year tinkering with equipment or doddering in my garden if I had nothing else to do, so the options for 80 acres are limitless, but assuming I keep the doddering to a minimum, what sort of time input are we talking about?

And yes it will be kept organic - the lease will require that, but it's the way I would want to do it in any case.

Thanks again.

gone up the hill · Oct 6, 2015

Who is doing the field work and how are you selling the grain??

New Puritan · Oct 6, 2015

gone up the hill said:
Who is doing the field work and how are you selling the grain??

Me! Not sure who buys it, that's part of the ongoing discussion with the current farmer. He's sold it to the same people every year 'til now, I assume it's an agent who wants organic cereals.

gone up the hill · Oct 6, 2015

What spread of crops will you grow and will you be ploughing// combo drilling etc?

New Puritan · Oct 6, 2015

Again, I'm trying to understand from the current guy what he's done for the last 10 - 15 years. Seems to just grow oats / wheat / barley. The land is too heavy for potatoes and we're in the wrong part of the country for peas / sugarbeet. He said he's grown beans before but wasn't impressed, though I don't know why. Are there still any incentives for growing things like lupins or borage? Dunno if he's ever done OSR.
Soil has historically been ploughed. Direct drilling wouldn't be so good on the soil there or with organic rotation - unless anyone wants to correct me on that?
I need to spend a lot more time with the farmer walking the land and picking through the history of what he's tried and what he got when he tried it.
Ta.

glasshouse · Oct 6, 2015

you will have to put at least half the area to grass and clover as you cant grow organic cereals year after year.
i would suggest a rotation of grass grass wheat barley

Flat 10 · Oct 6, 2015

Good luck. Buy Nix's pocket book. I feel that organic farming needs a stock element as @glasshouse

Barleycorn · Oct 7, 2015

As has been said you will need a rotation with a fertility building break, ideally a clover ley grazed by something, or a leguminous mixture to plough in.
It all depends on your location. If you have a local organic dairy farm handy you may be able to graze their heifers in the summer, this is what we do with our arable neighbour.
You may want to consider something a bit more intensive such as veg growing, especially if you are near a built up area and could support a farm shop.

Sparky270 · Oct 7, 2015

You will need something with four legs, that produces poo! or u will be wasting your time !

New Puritan · Oct 7, 2015

Thanks all, again. As for livestock, the current farmer doesn't have any, and he doesn't strike me as someone who would have run the fertility of his soil right down over the years, so I assume he's been having fallow years / growing legumes etc.
I'm not interested in having any animals really, if this venture has to be part-time as it won't pay on its own, then I can't be down there all the time looking after them.
Back to my earlier questions,

How much time will it take growing crops on 80 acres, bearing in mind the necessity for this to be part-time?
Are there still incentives for unusual crops - borage, linseed, lupins, poppies etc? (And has anyone grown these organically?)

I've been reading through loads of postings on the forum, but forgive me if I ask a question that has been answered elsewhere as there is a lot of info here, and clearly a lot of knowledgeable people - thanks to everyone.

glasshouse · Oct 7, 2015

40 acres will be all you can crop really, so that is a days sowing for a contractor.
40 ac of grass clover will want topped every month.

Robw54 · Oct 8, 2015

New Puritan said:
Thanks all, again. As for livestock, the current farmer doesn't have any, and he doesn't strike me as someone who would have run the fertility of his soil right down over the years, so I assume he's been having fallow years / growing legumes etc.
I'm not interested in having any animals really, if this venture has to be part-time as it won't pay on its own, then I can't be down there all the time looking after them.
Back to my earlier questions,

How much time will it take growing crops on 80 acres, bearing in mind the necessity for this to be part-time?

Are there still incentives for unusual crops - borage, linseed, lupins, poppies etc? (And has anyone grown these organically?)

I've been reading through loads of postings on the forum, but forgive me if I ask a question that has been answered elsewhere as there is a lot of info here, and clearly a lot of knowledgeable people - thanks to everyone.

Depends on how flexible your job is as to what you can do when. If you don't have big kit you will be at it all your spare time.

If you are renting and using contractor your role will be marketing and management of the crops. Is there going to be anything left to compensate you for risk and time spent?

Is there a way the existing farmer could train you up on how he's made it work over 3-5 years that way you will see what he does. If he is wanting to give someone a leg up you will soon find out or is there another agenda here.

Flat 10 · Oct 8, 2015

New Puritan said:
Thanks all, again. As for livestock, the current farmer doesn't have any, and he doesn't strike me as someone who would have run the fertility of his soil right down over the years, so I assume he's been having fallow years / growing legumes etc.
I'm not interested in having any animals really, if this venture has to be part-time as it won't pay on its own, then I can't be down there all the time looking after them.
Back to my earlier questions,

How much time will it take growing crops on 80 acres, bearing in mind the necessity for this to be part-time?

Are there still incentives for unusual crops - borage, linseed, lupins, poppies etc? (And has anyone grown these organically?)

I've been reading through loads of postings on the forum, but forgive me if I ask a question that has been answered elsewhere as there is a lot of info here, and clearly a lot of knowledgeable people - thanks to everyone.

How long is apiece of string? What machinery will you use? Big fields little fields? Grain store?

Robw54 · Oct 8, 2015

Be easier to grass it over and sell organic forage. Is he getting some CSS payment or HLS for organic? Sounds like a lot of hassle with no tackle - would he sell/rent you the equipment he currently has or is he using contractors?

Exfarmer · Oct 10, 2015

I do not believe anyone has been growing repeated organic cereal crops on any land, with no break for any length of time.
If they have, I would not worry too much about marketing.

Keep the day job, but by all means give it a go

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