Sodding Blackgrass And Wet

franklin · Jul 22, 2014

Hello,

So, fresh from reading posts about cover crops and about the younger, impatient generations desire to work against nature, I thought I would post this here. About 2 months ago I went and had a rummage in my fields of OSR. Pleasingly they were nicely cracked and had no weeds in them. So I swathed them to reduce nasty herbicides etc etc. Day after they were swathed, we had about an inch of rain. Combined them last week and had them limed and I thought I would direct drill some with wheat this year as they were in such good order.

We had an inch and a half plus of rain in the recent storms, so I went down on my bike to have a look. There are bloody 2" high blackgrass plants with heads on them sticking out of the cracks which have now filled in, and water stood in the tramlines.

Could someone sugest what I could do? My instant reaction is to get the sprayer out and spray the lot off, including my lovely carpet of 2 leaf volunteer OSR, with 3 litres of roundup. Then the tramlines would be properly forked, and I would end up sitting waiting for it to dry and go and rip the lot up and start again.

Nature wants this land to be grass, but until the end of next harvest when I have paid for all my kit, and hopefully there is a decent HLS replacement then that is not a choice I can make. My other plan was to spray the junk off, ruffle the tramlines with the subsoiler when its drier, and drill some fresh cover into it to take it through until spring for a spring crop.

Any thoughts welcome please.

Tim.

warksfarmer · Jul 22, 2014

static said:
Hello,

So, fresh from reading posts about cover crops and about the younger, impatient generations desire to work against nature, I thought I would post this here. About 2 months ago I went and had a rummage in my fields of OSR. Pleasingly they were nicely cracked and had no weeds in them. So I swathed them to reduce nasty herbicides etc etc. Day after they were swathed, we had about an inch of rain. Combined them last week and had them limed and I thought I would direct drill some with wheat this year as they were in such good order.

We had an inch and a half plus of rain in the recent storms, so I went down on my bike to have a look. There are bloody 2" high blackgrass plants with heads on them sticking out of the cracks which have now filled in, and water stood in the tramlines.

Could someone sugest what I could do? My instant reaction is to get the sprayer out and spray the lot off, including my lovely carpet of 2 leaf volunteer OSR, with 3 litres of roundup. Then the tramlines would be properly forked, and I would end up sitting waiting for it to dry and go and rip the lot up and start again.

Nature wants this land to be grass, but until the end of next harvest when I have paid for all my kit, and hopefully there is a decent HLS replacement then that is not a choice I can make. My other plan was to spray the junk off, ruffle the tramlines with the subsoiler when its drier, and drill some fresh cover into it to take it through until spring for a spring crop.

Any thoughts welcome please.

Tim.

What your describing is the norm for most farmers in this country. Unless your cropping on free draining light soils then no-till is only part of the answer ...... sometimes when conditions allow. Clearly conditions are not allowing you at the moment so don't do it.

We have a 60ac field exactly as you describe thats currently got its 2nd spring crop in it. This year after harvest its having a tillage radish cover crop drilled into it. Then we will watch and see with the plan being it will be planted with spring wheat in April 2015 meaning its on its 3rd consecutive spring sown crop.

If we do not see any improvement after that then I have no idea because we've done the multiple glyphsate applications on it before seeding, we've tried shallow tillage and now the cover crop gets a go.

SilliamWhale · Jul 22, 2014

I actually don't think cracked soils are a good sign personally. Your soils haven't magically lost condition because it rained -they are either still ok or they weren't in as good a condition as you thought they were. Wet soils aren't a problem for the seed necessarily - but your 8 weeks away from drilling anyway so why the fretting?

I'd leave it all grow on a bit more yet its not going to seed. And spray off twice if you want maybe once mid sept and once pre drilling.

But if you feel you have a blackgrass "problem" there then the logical thing would be not to grow wheat there until sept 2015. And have a crack at another crop there in the meantime - I'm presuming it was WB or WW last year?

Clive · Jul 22, 2014

why the rush ?

let the OSR and BG grow, its not about to seed is it ?

when conditions are right as late as you dare on your soil apply robust dose of glyphosate, then drill direct into it with as little disturbance as possible

franklin · Jul 22, 2014

SilliamWhale said:
I'm presuming it was WB or WW last year?

Rape stubbles, after fallow. Soil in good order with loads of lovely mole hills, hence my reluctance to shift it about. As soon as the cultivator comes out, at todays prices, thats a good % of the profit gone.

Clive said:
BG grow, its not about to seed is it ?

Will be starting to flower at the end of the week I would suspect.

What about slightly-too-deep tramlines?

THe OSR that we direct drilled last year has transformed the land into this brilliant sponge which has been an eye-opener. I was hoping it would be more of the same but the tramlines in one or two places I am sure will need some attention. Been out pulling up roots and it is pretty dry deeper down.

Clive · Jul 22, 2014

static said:
What about slightly-too-deep tramlines?

.

use the same ones again next year ? fixing my tramline positions has been one of the best things we have done in recent years, if they are really bad maybe just pull something through them when conditions are a bit better to level up a bit

Simon C · Jul 22, 2014

[QUOTE="
What about slightly-too-deep tramlines?

[/QUOTE]

Sorry, I'm of the opposite view to Clive.

Don't drive in the tramlines again, move your new ones onto firmer, more natural settled ground where you won't sink in anymore. Then try to level the old ones and get the next crop growing in them.They may show in the crop for one year, but will be gone after two. The worst thing you could do is pull them up with a subsoiler tine and the expect them to take the weight of all your sprayer passes for another year.

I now always drill and therefor spray at a different angle each year and tramlines are never visible from one year to the next.

As for the blackgrass, just spray the whole lot off before it's seed becomes viable, obviously running anywhere but in the old wet tramlines. You might find that the glypho doesn't do much to the volunteer rape anyway, but it will kill the BG

York · Jul 22, 2014

static said:
Hello,

So, fresh from reading posts about cover crops and about the younger, impatient generations desire to work against nature, I thought I would post this here. About 2 months ago I went and had a rummage in my fields of OSR. Pleasingly they were nicely cracked and had no weeds in them. So I swathed them to reduce nasty herbicides etc etc. Day after they were swathed, we had about an inch of rain. Combined them last week and had them limed and I thought I would direct drill some with wheat this year as they were in such good order.

We had an inch and a half plus of rain in the recent storms, so I went down on my bike to have a look. There are bloody 2" high blackgrass plants with heads on them sticking out of the cracks which have now filled in, and water stood in the tramlines.

Could someone sugest what I could do? My instant reaction is to get the sprayer out and spray the lot off, including my lovely carpet of 2 leaf volunteer OSR, with 3 litres of roundup. Then the tramlines would be properly forked, and I would end up sitting waiting for it to dry and go and rip the lot up and start again.

Nature wants this land to be grass, but until the end of next harvest when I have paid for all my kit, and hopefully there is a decent HLS replacement then that is not a choice I can make. My other plan was to spray the junk off, ruffle the tramlines with the subsoiler when its drier, and drill some fresh cover into it to take it through until spring for a spring crop.
Tim.

Tim, Why did you lime? Sorry for the majority of soils on the island I see no need in liming.
All you described is big cracks when dry and I would say when wett lumpy.
You are right, especialy Black Gras is showing low air & compaction / tight layering in the soil. Work on getting rid of this and BG will be less & lesser of a problem. But don't increase the "problem" with more liming.
do your research, there is lot's to read about it in the Kinsey & Albrecht threads.

Clive said:
why the rush ?
let the OSR and BG grow, its not about to seed is it ?
when conditions are right as late as you dare on your soil apply robust dose of glyphosate, then drill direct into it with as little disturbance as possible

Clive,
glyphosate:
no need of robust dosage if done right. We have people which apply well below of 1 l/ha of generic Glyphosate with well below 100 l/ha of Water. Brasiliens are doing it, major point is pH below 4.5 in the water.
Soil disturbance:
absolutly right.
York-Th.

Clive · Jul 22, 2014

york_mobil said:
Tim, Why did you lime? Sorry for the majority of soils on the island I see no need in liming.
All you described is big cracks when dry and I would say when wett lumpy.
You are right, especialy Black Gras is showing low air & compaction / tight layering in the soil. Work on getting rid of this and BG will be less & lesser of a problem. But don't increase the "problem" with more liming.
do your research, there is lot's to read about it in the Kinsey & Albrecht threads.

Clive,
glyphosate:
no need of robust dosage if done right. We have people which apply well below of 1 l/ha of generic Glyphosate with well below 100 l/ha of Water. Brasiliens are doing it, major point is pH below 4.5 in the water.
Soil disturbance:
absolutly right.
York-Th.

Have seen good results from low glyphosate rates in the past myself here - I fear resistance however so never use less than 1000g active these days

York · Jul 22, 2014

Clive said:
Have seen good results from low glyphosate rates in the past myself here - I fear resistance however so never use less than 1000g active these days

I understand you Clive, but please understand that pH has a much larger effect. To underline this remember that Glyphosate was 1stly patented as a chelator for minerals and take this in respect of pH and you know what the outcome is.
Brasil with this lower rates don't have a larger or quicker resitence problem than the US which is more dominated by the standart Big M rates.
Our goal is to not use it and when we use it we use it with low dosages & the best efective result. Low rate & efficient result are no contradictions.
Anyway, in the end it's just a observation I share & no recomendation. The observation is from Brasil. We have to do what our laws are telling us and as good citisens we are following the law.
York-Th.

Clive · Jul 22, 2014

What can you add to water to get it to ph 4.5 ?

York · Jul 23, 2014

Clive said:
What can you add to water to get it to ph 4.5 ?

Clive,
don't know about GB market. over here on the mainland we have a range of water conditioner available. They stop at 4.5 pH and are indicating achieved pH by colour changes in the water.
Basicly all mineral based acids are working.
Using a milking machine acid cleaner is ok as it it approved for farming use, so CC compatable. Don't kow but our controllers don't have a problem when a arable farmer is using it who has no cows or milking unit.
also at TFF there has been some discussion on it.
York-Th.

Will7 · Jul 23, 2014

Tim,

If the blackgrass is about to flower, I would spray it off but put my sprayer wheelings next to last years. IE one wheel between last years wheelings to keep the damage to a minimum, yet keep the wheelings in the same area.

Although in the same part of the world to you, I need some rain to get the blackgrass chitted on the rape stubbles as we missed out on all the storms. It is so dry at the moment I am only pulling a twin leg subsoiler to pull out the worst wheelings and then will see how it looks.

Go with gut feeling, no one knows your land/blackgrass burden like you do.

Will

franklin · Jul 23, 2014

Yup, I have a plan and will spray off tomorrow or Friday once the chemical (and water conditoner) has been delivered. Will put in some fresh tramlines on the hard ground; send the lad around the field edge which will be missed to sort it with a knapsack. I reckon most of the tramlines are going to be re-usable in the year, but I am going in with the mole plough to try and let the wet get through the deeper ones before I level them with something suitable when they are drier.

Just to say that our DD oilseed rape has been a good success - so much so that we have decided to direct drill it with wheat next year, so I am keen to perservere and get these back on track.

Will7 said:
Go with gut feeling, no one knows your land/blackgrass burden like you do.

Thanks, I am getting on top of the BG in these fields but as I have seen, it only takes one slip-up. However, these are destined to be stewardship grassland if / when the next scheme comes out.

York · Jul 24, 2014

static said:
Yup, I have a plan and will spray off tomorrow or Friday once the chemical (and water conditoner) has been delivered. Will put in some fresh tramlines on the hard ground; send the lad around the field edge which will be missed to sort it with a knapsack. I reckon most of the tramlines are going to be re-usable in the year, but I am going in with the mole plough to try and let the wet get through the deeper ones before I level them with something suitable when they are drier.

Just to say that our DD oilseed rape has been a good success - so much so that we have decided to direct drill it with wheat next year, so I am keen to perservere and get these back on track.

Thanks, I am getting on top of the BG in these fields but as I have seen, it only takes one slip-up. However, these are destined to be stewardship grassland if / when the next scheme comes out.

So economy set by outside? Subsidy driven.
I don't know but I never work in regions where my income is limited by government sub's and I'm restricted in what to do.
My bos always says: I have never taken subs and I will never do. Never be reliant on subs.
We hav3e the 1st farms over here that don't claim EU Subs. One client, just below 100 milkers is in the top 5 milkers in his state and makes 1000+ € profit on a cow, without subs. Anyway, he is now working diligently on his soils so he get's his gras silage quality better as he reckons that's another 60000 € profit in the cows.
York-Th.

franklin · Jul 27, 2014

I have run the mole plough through the bad bits, and levelled the poor tramlines with the discs. Will roll and leave alone now.

Subsidy is just income for me. I personally dont give a damn where my income comes from so long as I get a big heap of it. If I put my fields into some kind of stewardship grassland, then I will still be keeping an eye on soil health as the money from hay and grazing is just more income.

Clive · Jul 27, 2014

york_mobil said:
Clive,
don't know about GB market. over here on the mainland we have a range of water conditioner available. They stop at 4.5 pH and are indicating achieved pH by colour changes in the water.
Basicly all mineral based acids are working.
Using a milking machine acid cleaner is ok as it it approved for farming use, so CC compatable. Don't kow but our controllers don't have a problem when a arable farmer is using it who has no cows or milking unit.
also at TFF there has been some discussion on it.
York-Th.

This post got me thinking over the weekend and I reckon 100 L/ha of AS might just be a better carrier of glyphosate than water ? Or maybe 25% or 50% AS water mix would be enough to lower ph ?

Knockie · Jul 27, 2014

Clive said:
This post got me thinking over the weekend and I reckon 100 L/ha of AS might just be a better carrier of glyphosate than water ? Or maybe 25% or 50% AS water mix would be enough to lower ph ?

I've tried adding 250 litres of AS in a 4000 litre sprayer tank fill this year with pre harvest roundup. This would be about 6%, in the US I think it's quite normal to go at about 2% dilution.

Clive · Jul 27, 2014

Knockie said:
I've tried adding 250 litres of AS in a 4000 litre sprayer tank fill this year with pre harvest roundup. This would be about 6%, in the US I think it's quite normal to go at about 2% dilution.

What was the result ? Did you try alongside a control ?

This could also be a backdoor way to legally apply autumn N to zero-till crops as the AS is being applied as a herbicide enhancer not a fertiliser !!!

dontknowanything · Jul 27, 2014

Clive said:
This could also be a backdoor way to legally apply autumn N to zero-till crops as the AS is being applied as a herbicide enhancer not a fertiliser !!!

You can do it with a derogation from a FACTS adviser, but why would you want to???

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