Weaving Big Disc

mikep · Oct 19, 2014

dontknowanything said:
Where is this research?

Nothing formal but most from just browsing around the net, do a search. Also a bit of personal experience with blocked coulters, not scientific (or intentional!) I agree but gives a good indication non the less.
I remember talking to other farmers a few years ago who almost to a man agreed that the move to narrow spacings (usually from an old MF30 drill) made sweet fanny adams difference to their yield.

dontknowanything · Oct 19, 2014

mikep said:
Nothing formal but most from just browsing around the net, do a search. Also a bit of personal experience with blocked coulters, not scientific (or intentional!) I agree but gives a good indication non the less.
I remember talking to other farmers a few years ago who almost to a man agreed that the move to narrow spacings (usually from an old MF30 drill) made sweet fanny adams difference to their yield.

I think this issue will have subtle results, way too much to see with on farm trials. It also lends itself well to reductionist scientific study - so I am only really keen to see proper experiments. Soren talked about a 3% drop, which is actually very significant. [For example, it would pay for the difference between a 750a and a CS]

I'm very pro wide row spacings in general, but it only makes sense with a little-to-zero chance of yield reduction (an increase would be excellent!)

dontknowanything · Oct 19, 2014

warksfarmer said:
We will have 12.5cm and 18.5cm in the same field this year at the same seed rate of 270kg/ha as a comparison.

Is that your normal seed rate?! Or is it after potatoes?

warksfarmer · Oct 20, 2014

York · Oct 20, 2014

warksfarmer said:
View attachment 74629

looks good, but where is the soil cover?
This could have been drilled with almost any drill.
York-Th.

warksfarmer · Oct 20, 2014

dontknowanything said:
Is that your normal seed rate?! Or is it after potatoes?

Normal seedrate. Started at 230kg now up to 270kg to finish off. Seed is cheaper than inputs.

dontknowanything · Oct 20, 2014

warksfarmer said:
Normal seedrate. Started at 230kg now up to 270kg to finish off. Seed is cheaper than inputs.

Wow, that's getting on for double what we use

warksfarmer · Oct 20, 2014

dontknowanything said:
Wow, that's getting on for double what we use

Whenever we tried the lower rates (down to 120kg at times) the eventual yield always seemed lower and we ended up spending more on inputs due to the early drilling needed to establish the lower rate.

Some of the best yields have come from 250kg/ha seed rates here.

Clive · Oct 20, 2014

dontknowanything said:
Wow, that's getting on for double what we use

its close double what I use and I reckon this year most of my crops are a bit thick already

seems to work for Lee though

DangerRanger · Oct 20, 2014

270kg/ha could establish 540plants/m2 @50tgw

Fully tillered 450 - 600 ears/m2 are needed for the crop to reach full potential

York · Oct 20, 2014

DangerRanger said:
270kg/ha could establish 540plants/m2 @50tgw

Fully tillered 450 - 600 ears/m2 are needed for the crop to reach full potential

kg seed rate doesn't say anything. Only interesting thing is seeds per m2.
I would be "Worried" by this tillering rate. Even more so when I take into account your mild winter and much longer growing period.
We would say: must be poor seed.

York-Th.

Clive · Oct 20, 2014

DangerRanger said:
270kg/ha could establish 540plants/m2 @50tgw

Fully tillered 450 - 600 ears/m2 are needed for the crop to reach full potential

my target has been 250 / m2 which at TGW's across various varieties and % establishment estimations has been seed rates of circa 150kgs/ha - more than enough for 450-600 ears, probably too thick really

no wonder Lee likes a big hopper on his drills

warksfarmer · Oct 20, 2014

We are on 550 seeds at the moment and was 450 earlier on. We have also done some at 350 on some night land.

Andy Howard · Oct 20, 2014

Clive said:
my target has been 250 / m2 which at TGW's across various varieties and % establishment estimations has been seed rates of circa 150kgs/ha - more than enough for 450-600 ears, probably too thick really

no wonder Lee likes a big hopper on his drills

On heavy wet clay soils we increase seed rates as they always struggle. Don't forget the heavy land is normally BG land and planting the numbers you are talking about could be disastrous if BG takes hold

db9go · Oct 21, 2014

We can grow two crops at the same time one being BG and the other is Wheat when we use low seed rates like some are saying then we don't have a think enough crop but when we up the seed rate and get good stand of wheat then the BG can be controlled better we like close row drill and that help keep with BG control

TelesnaAg · Oct 23, 2014

? 270 KG/ha on 12.5 or 18.5 ...how much seed ends up on top of each other...i think i worked out with my wheat at 140kg/ha 7" spacings the seed is 25mm apart if individually placed.??

Ant....

Colin · Oct 23, 2014

500 seeds now, if it turns cold quick there will be little tillering happening. Light soil so get good establishment but trials have shown that seed rate is needed "here". Also light land is more prone to dropping tillers if it turns dry in the spring so need good main shoots and maybe one or two good tillers.

mikep · Oct 23, 2014

dontknowanything said:
I think this issue will have subtle results, way too much to see with on farm trials. It also lends itself well to reductionist scientific study - so I am only really keen to see proper experiments. Soren talked about a 3% drop, which is actually very significant. [For example, it would pay for the difference between a 750a and a CS]

I'm very pro wide row spacings in general, but it only makes sense with a little-to-zero chance of yield reduction (an increase would be excellent!)

Thought I had posted a reply but must be dreaming!!
A 3% difference is a lot in the barn but it would be very difficult prove in a field experiment as it is well within experimental error. To say conclusively then you would need a huge number of replicated plots over a few years with the research being reviewed properly. It strikes me the Amazon report is irresponsible to say this without qualification.
The only way is to try it yourself and see if there are any trends you can see, you would have a better idea how it works on your farm than any researcher or expert (or machinery salesman).
One possibility that wide rows would open up is the use of inter row hoeing or band spraying either of which would be a really useful tool against the old enemy BG.

dontknowanything · Oct 23, 2014

mikep said:
Thought I had posted a reply but must be dreaming!!
A 3% difference is a lot in the barn but it would be very difficult prove in a field experiment as it is well within experimental error. To say conclusively then you would need a huge number of replicated plots over a few years with the research being reviewed properly. It strikes me the Amazon report is irresponsible to say this without qualification.
The only way is to try it yourself and see if there are any trends you can see, you would have a better idea how it works on your farm than any researcher or expert (or machinery salesman).
One possibility that wide rows would open up is the use of inter row hoeing or band spraying either of which would be a really useful tool against the old enemy BG.

Yes, I would agree with all of that

York · Oct 23, 2014

I looked at the Amazone research on row spacing. OK, if you look at it from the scientific standards, they are sound, no debate.
But, we need, and all their comments indicate this, like Look with same seeding rate we get too much inner row competition, we need to have a systemic approach. so we need to lower the seed rate so the inner row distance of the single seed to each other are not getting tooo close.

For me there is much more relevance from a organic researcher, which did follow a more system comparison trial. Also to scientific standards. He said that up to 25 cm row spacing there is no yield loss if you do it right. so the inner row competition between the seeds is very important to take into account. Furthermore, since Vaderstad with a Seed Hawk is able to get 10 t/ha wheat in northern Germany, why should I even start to question this? this is on farmers fields, not trials.
Please understand, that Amazone was one of the driving forces in the early 70's for this 12.5 cm row spacing to get farmers to buy new drills after every one got the conversion from horse drawn drills to tractor drills. Amazone even invented the plow new. Only my friend Michael H. is not having his own plow design. But maybe he is going to buy soon a bankrupt plow manufacturer.
York-Th.

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