help with grazing agreement please

dgd119 · Oct 19, 2014

I've recently inherited my fathers smallholding after he passed away. We have about 6 acres of land.

For the last several years my dad let a neighbouring farmer graze some sheep on the land to keep the grass down. There seems to have been no written agreement and no money changed hands. I believe the farmer was supposed to do some maintenance of the fields, but very little seems to have been other than blocking holes in fences with branches to stop sheep escaping!

The state of the fields and fences is deteriorating and I am looking to reassess the situation and reach a more satisfactory agreement. Unfortnately this is all very new to me and I don't really know what a good agreement would entail.

I'd be grateful for help with the following questions:

1. neighbour has been grazing for free and with no written agreement for 10 years plus. is he likely to have acquired any legal rights to use the land that i need to be aware of?
2. what would a normal grazing agreement require the person using the land to do. I would like to get ditches maintained, weeds and rushes controlled. hedges trimmed and fences mainatained. none of this seems to have been happening. is this reasonable to expect in return for use of the land? or do i do upkeep and they make a payment to cover costs? how does this usually work? what is the going rate for grazing per acre?
3. we also have common land grazing rights along with fields. would this increase the value of any grazing?

as i said, all this very new to me, and any and all help and advice much appreciated.

glasshouse · Oct 19, 2014

All maintainance work is the owners responsiblity. On small areas like 6 acres, the cost of fencing, draining, hedging can be way more than the value of the grass.
If a grazier does some of this work it is a bonus.
I graze some small paddocks as a service, just to keep them tidy, but movement regulations make it fraught.

Y Fan Wen · Oct 19, 2014

http://www.sheepkeep.co.uk/FAQ.htm#licence

Alter to suit.

devonshire farmer · Oct 19, 2014

Firstly you aren't going to get rich from it, you may get him to agree to what you have suggested but he certainly wont pay rent as well and if you are wanting to improve it you may just need to put money to it for a year or two

Exfarmer · Oct 21, 2014

There is a great danger your grazier may have acquired tenants rights.
I would ask him to remove his sheep so you can carry out maintenance. Ie replacing fences.
Once gone he will have lost any claim.
However you may find it difficult to gain another grazier, but if you let him back make sure you get a proper written agreement first, speak to a local land agent.
You will certainly get more rent by letting it for horses, but that is another can of worms.

Dry Rot · Oct 21, 2014

Location, location, location!

brynseiri · Oct 21, 2014

It would be difficult to prove your existing tennant has been there long enough to claim sitting tennants rights if he were that way inclined. Offer it to him with a drawn up agreement, you really want £150.00 an acre without him claiming any subsidy on the land. If he doesn't like it, get him out on his ear, you'll soon find someone else as long as its fenced and has running water.

dgd119 · Oct 23, 2014

thanks for the replys. I'm not hoping to get rich! Just would like some contribution to the upkeep if possible.

so sound like best plan is to offer it to him with a proper agreement. £150 per acre for how long?! per year? per month?!
i suspect he would sooner do some maintenance than pay cash. so i guess i could ask him to do topping/hedging etc to the value of instead of making payment?

also why is it important he doesn't claim any subsidy on the land? i understand our place is too small for us to claim any subsidy but if he was to add it to his claim he could get some small subsidy which might make him more willing to help with maintenance. is that a bad idea/

Pennine Ploughing · Oct 23, 2014

oh feck that getting him to pay no rent and do maintenance, he will next be claiming it is his land, charge the bugger £125 per acre per 11 months, keep it clear of his stock for 1 month, say Decembers, and do the maintenance your self, that way every one knows where they are,

brynseiri · Oct 23, 2014

dgd119 said:
thanks for the replys. I'm not hoping to get rich! Just would like some contribution to the upkeep if possible.

so sound like best plan is to offer it to him with a proper agreement. £150 per acre for how long?! per year? per month?!
i suspect he would sooner do some maintenance than pay cash. so i guess i could ask him to do topping/hedging etc to the value of instead of making payment?

also why is it important he doesn't claim any subsidy on the land? i understand our place is too small for us to claim any subsidy but if he was to add it to his claim he could get some small subsidy which might make him more willing to help with maintenance. is that a bad idea/

You have to have the place empty for 1 month of the year, so it would be for an eleven month tenancy, otherwise if there for 12 he could claim sitting tenants' rights and have the agreement as evidence. You can split the unoccupied month to a fortnight in spring and a fortnight in autumn, spring fortnight usually works as you'd let him spread his fertiliser on it etc, as long as no stock, he ain't occupying it.

Treacle Sponge · Nov 13, 2014

Stick with sheep, if you can. Grazing horses, apart from making a mess of the pasture, may lead to the land not being viewed as agricultural. In that case, you would lose any agricultural tax benefits. Keeping Inheritance Tax rules in mind is really important.

brynseiri · Nov 13, 2014

Horses are a no no, usually average horse folk are skint too.

reaguns · Dec 8, 2014

I would ask around to see how much you would have to pay someone to do the maintenance, assuming you can't do it yourself, I dunno about your neck of the woods but in mine the rent would be worth more than the maintenance, so I would be charging him rent.

Wooly · Dec 8, 2014

dgd119 said:
thanks for the replys. I'm not hoping to get rich! Just would like some contribution to the upkeep if possible.

so sound like best plan is to offer it to him with a proper agreement. £150 per acre for how long?! per year? per month?!
i suspect he would sooner do some maintenance than pay cash. so i guess i could ask him to do topping/hedging etc to the value of instead of making payment?

also why is it important he doesn't claim any subsidy on the land? i understand our place is too small for us to claim any subsidy but if he was to add it to his claim he could get some small subsidy which might make him more willing to help with maintenance. is that a bad idea/

Where are you based?

Your Dad was probably happy to have the grass eaten down by the sheep, which kept his 6 acres tidy and saved him from topping it. The farmer, if an honorable person, will accept circumstances have changed and will hopefully want to work with you......................... but he probably has sitting Tenancy Rights if he wants to get awkward.

Don't get the £150 acre into your head because most places in the UK you will be lucky to get £30 acre!

Nosmo King · Mar 14, 2015

The moment the person moves his sheep off the land you occupy it, change the gate and lock it.
You dont have to serve a Notice to Quit if he has left.

cjss · Mar 14, 2015

In relation to your questions-

1) The previous arrangements are very much a tenancy agreement as the sheep have not been removed therefore creating a tenancy agreement as he has exclusive occupation. If entry pre Sep 1995- he has an AHA. Or may be a Tenancy at Will therefore can get him off easily. Therefore on the safe side get the stock of before entering into a new agreement . Just a note, make sure the land is registered.

2) A grazier is only on the land to graze and take cuts of silage off unless he has the BPS he will be entitled to keep in in GAEC and do that type of work but it will fall on you to repair if he is not claiming the BPS. However I would recommend you claim the BPS if the land is poor to take into account the poor rent. Or have a FBT where a tenant was to put the land into better condition for a rent free period but you would expect the term to be at least 5 years. There is no point having that same person on the land that has not maintained it.

3) Depends on how many rights and distance the common was form the fields.

Hope that helps.

help with grazing agreement please

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