improving lambing%

d.iainm · Oct 21, 2014

Main aim at the moment with the flock is to increase the lambing and the weaning %. Last year was a bit of a disaster so hoping the coming year will be alot better. getting some ewes blood tested tomorrow to see if they are lacking anything that can be sorted with a bolus.
Going to harness the ram this year and change the colour after a few weeks to see if there any returning to the ram.
Had most of the gimmers empty last year so tempted to keep them inbye this winter and get them scanned(don't normally scan). then get blood tests done on them if they show as having alot empty this year again. Can't scan them all as don't have enough inbye grazing although in the future if i manage to increase the lambing % it would be worth while.
The ewes will be going to the ram on land that has been empty since aug and they will be getting a fluke and worm dose when they go with the ram.
Anyone have any thoughts on anything else i could be doing to try and improve things.

neilo · Oct 21, 2014

Have they been jabbed with Toxovax? Lots of empty first timers screams Toxo as the most likely candidate. Have you blood tested for that (FOC via Vaccine company/vet IIRC)? Might be a bit late for jabbing this year now, as needs 30 days before tups go in.

d.iainm · Oct 21, 2014

neilo said:
Have they been jabbed with Toxovax? Lots of empty first timers screams Toxo as the most likely candidate. Have you blood tested for that (FOC via Vaccine company/vet IIRC)? Might be a bit late for jabbing this year now, as needs 30 days before tups go in.

never jabbed with toxovax, was hoping last year was just a bad year due to a few things not getting done and the ewes not being in the best condition. If alot of them showed to be empty at scanning would a blood test then show toxo was the problem. whats the price of the jag would the whole flock need done or just the first lambers, think i read before they become immune but could be thinking of something else.

will6910 · Oct 21, 2014

we had to vaccinate for toxo this year, was £4 a head, done all breeding stock this year, after this year only bought jn sheep or ewe lambs kept for breeding need done, according to the vet anyway

neilo · Oct 21, 2014

d.iainm said:
never jabbed with toxovax, was hoping last year was just a bad year due to a few things not getting done and the ewes not being in the best condition. If alot of them showed to be empty at scanning would a blood test then show toxo was the problem. whats the price of the jag would the whole flock need done or just the first lambers, think i read before they become immune but could be thinking of something else.

If they've had it, they are supposed to get immune (although some talk of carriers these days IIRC). I think a blood test any time will show antibodies if they've been exposed. You normally just do replacements once the flock are on it, but 'should' do everything first off. 'Maybe' not much point if it's already run through them though?

Bad news is that it costs about £4/ewe dose now.

d.iainm · Oct 21, 2014

I will ask the vet her thoughts tomorrow if the samples from the ewes would show if they have it. Think I will see how things go as far as tupping to close now to jag them anyway and the £4 ahead is a bit of a bummer aswell so hopefully if i say my prayers on sunday they wont have it

Global ovine · Oct 22, 2014

There are many reasons for a disappointing lambing result. To fix a problem one needs to ask the right questions, and as I see it you have insufficient information to go on. Good advice has been given about Toxo abortion, but is this the problem? I suggest working down a chronological list, gathering the information and seeing where/when the problem appears.

Are rams fertile? (get vet to check them).
Are rams working? (use of harness/crayons will answer this, but change colour on day 18 to see if returns appear)
Have ewes become pregnant? (scan them; are empties showing up, are dead foetuses present, are there too many singles:twins???.....answers questions about condition score and trace element problems.....selenium especially.)
Scanned lambs no longer there at lambing? (Toxo a prime suspect).
Losses at lambing? (didn't breathe.....selenium, ewe insufficient milk.....Vit B12/cobalt, lambs too small or too big....feed management).
Too many losses up to weaning? (disease issues).

I can clearly remember a farmer with a history of poor lambings, he was advised to buy rams with much higher fecundity. Two years of lambing their daughters saw his lambing drop to record lows as he put so many more lambs at risk to the abortion and trace element deficiency problems that were not addressed. He later concluded that this free advice was the most expensive he ever took on board, all because he did not ask the right questions.

d.iainm · Oct 22, 2014

Global ovine said:
There are many reasons for a disappointing lambing result. To fix a problem one needs to ask the right questions, and as I see it you have insufficient information to go on. Good advice has been given about Toxo abortion, but is this the problem? I suggest working down a chronological list, gathering the information and seeing where/when the problem appears.

Are rams fertile? (get vet to check them).

Are rams working? (use of harness/crayons will answer this, but change colour on day 18 to see if returns appear)

Have ewes become pregnant? (scan them; are empties showing up, are dead foetuses present, are there too many singles:twins???.....answers questions about condition score and trace element problems.....selenium especially.)

Scanned lambs no longer there at lambing? (Toxo a prime suspect).

Losses at lambing? (didn't breathe.....selenium, ewe insufficient milk.....Vit B12/cobalt, lambs too small or too big....feed management).

Too many losses up to weaning? (disease issues).

I can clearly remember a farmer with a history of poor lambings, he was advised to buy rams with much higher fecundity. Two years of lambing their daughters saw his lambing drop to record lows as he put so many more lambs at risk to the abortion and trace element deficiency problems that were not addressed. He later concluded that this free advice was the most expensive he ever took on board, all because he did not ask the right questions.

thanks for the reply will try and answer your questions or at least give my reasoning as to what im doing.

1.The rams that were used were shearlings that had both been used on their own as lambs without a problem. they both had a group each for the first 3 weeks then were mixed for the last couple of weeks. they were two different breeds and both left lambs just neither of them as much as i would like. Never harnessed the rams so will this year although at the moment only planning on using one ram but will have others available as back up. This makes me think the ram is not to blame but i could be wrong.

2. Plan on using a harness this year to check the ewes are being covered.

3. Were the ewes ever pregnant was my biggest question. The weather was really bad last tupping and due to crossed wires the ewes never got a fluke dose or a selinium and cobalt drench that i normally give them pre tupping. This has me thinking that this could be the main reason as i have seen a lift in previous years since starting to use the selenium drench. the ewes will be blood tested today so hopefully i will know soon what the best bolus to give them would be.

4. Can't keep all the ewes in without needing to feed them but im hoping that keeping the gimmers in and getting them scanned and keeping an eye on them after that will give me a better idea.

5. not alot of lambing losses from lambing to weaning. a few lambs not coming back of the hill so could be anything from getting into a ditch or eagle.

$Sheep · Oct 22, 2014

The key points to getting the ewes in lamb have already been provided but I would also ensure:

are the ewes at target condition score, depending upon breed do they need to be flushed to increase ovulation
the rams must also be in good condition to work i.e. hopefully they are not fat and unable to get around after an easy lazy summer
observe the rams behaviour, they should be doing what rams do and be eager for more not trying to shirk from manly duties
use a soft crayon as I would want to see crayon plastered all over the ewes backside so there is no doubt the job is done
the ewes are best not disturbed if possible so they are not stressed, keep the dogs on a leash or leave them at home and use binoculars to observe quietly from a distance on the days they don't need to be shifted
ensure the feed level is appropriate so that the newly fertilised embryo has a high chance of survival
monitor monitor monitor

Hope you record a good pregnancy scan %age

Old Tip · Oct 22, 2014

Hi Mate

My guess would be Fluke, its been really bad for a few years now and if the ewes never got dosed then they would either reabsorb lambs to save them selves or never get in lamb in the first place. Did you lose any ewes with fluke or did you do them after tupping, as some of the drenches can effect them if they are only just tupped. I would also check for copper as they just dont come in season if its low but if it is just the gimmers then it could easily be abortion.

I only once let one tup in with the ewes, never again, always a minimum of three per batch, if two are fighting one is working and they will all have a go given a chance, may not be the best method but never get many geld ewes.

Always do all treatments before let the tups in then try not to disturb them at all for the next couple of months bar take the tups out.

I dont have much inbye either so tup on the hill a 250 acre hill with 5 rams to 200 ewes, leave them in 6 weeks then pull out the rams, personally i don't like harnesses as they can get very loose and stop the tup working or worse.

I then gather everything for scanning as late as possible and just keep them in for a few days to scan and fluke them again, i keep the twins in and everything else goes back to the fell till a week before lambing when they are gathered onto the hill they were tupped on and checked once a day but most lamb no hassle.

I do feed licks as a precaution and find they dont take them that much if the weather is good but it saves them if the weather is bad.

Hope this helps

OT

Hillfarmer18 · Oct 22, 2014

What is the grazing like there on now? Are getting any feeding? They need to be in good condition before going to the tup to increase fertility not just when they are with the tup

d.iainm · Oct 22, 2014

Old Tip said:
Hi Mate

My guess would be Fluke, its been really bad for a few years now and if the ewes never got dosed then they would either reabsorb lambs to save them selves or never get in lamb in the first place. Did you lose any ewes with fluke or did you do them after tupping, as some of the drenches can effect them if they are only just tupped. I would also check for copper as they just dont come in season if its low but if it is just the gimmers then it could easily be abortion.

I only once let one tup in with the ewes, never again, always a minimum of three per batch, if two are fighting one is working and they will all have a go given a chance, may not be the best method but never get many geld ewes.

Always do all treatments before let the tups in then try not to disturb them at all for the next couple of months bar take the tups out.

I dont have much inbye either so tup on the hill a 250 acre hill with 5 rams to 200 ewes, leave them in 6 weeks then pull out the rams, personally i don't like harnesses as they can get very loose and stop the tup working or worse.

I then gather everything for scanning as late as possible and just keep them in for a few days to scan and fluke them again, i keep the twins in and everything else goes back to the fell till a week before lambing when they are gathered onto the hill they were tupped on and checked once a day but most lamb no hassle.

I do feed licks as a precaution and find they dont take them that much if the weather is good but it saves them if the weather is bad.

Hope this helps

OT

Had the vet out today and she agrees that fluke dose was probably the main reason. They were dosed after they had been with the tup. I don't like doing much with them when they are with the ram so left them till tupping was done. It might not have made any difference. I will be back to normal this year and they will be dosed before going with the ram. blood testing for deficiencies so will hopefully know next week what they could do with. She said she could be almost certain they would be lacking selenium and cobalt.

only putting 40 ewes to the tup this year so 3 rams with them might get a bit bored. I wish i had a decent bit of hill ground fenced of but the whole hill is open hoping in the next few years our township part of the hill will get fenced but it wont be anytime soon.

the vet did say looking at the hill ground 90% is about what she would expect for lambing so maybe I am hoping for a bit too much but will see how things go this coming season.

d.iainm · Oct 22, 2014

Hillfarmer18 said:
What is the grazing like there on now? Are getting any feeding? They need to be in good condition before going to the tup to increase fertility not just when they are with the tup

they are out on the hill until they get gathered for the ram in a few weeks. i don't feed them until they are lambing. will be on better grazing for a couple of weeks before the ram goes in.

Old Tip · Oct 22, 2014

Mine are on an open fell most of the time but i am lucky and have an enclosed hill as well which makes life a lot easier, even with 40 i would be tempted to put both rams in they will defiantly work harder if the weather is bad like last year a tup can be very keen to stay out of the weather if he has no competition. If your getting 90/100% weaned you are doing ok, improving the quality of the stock will probably pay better than trying to increase lambing % to much, twins are a real nuisance but geld sheep are a waste of time, so its a fine balance. My land is very low on selenium and cobalt but i never worry about it as if the sheep are bred to the place they are used to coping with it.

Good Luck

OT

d.iainm · Oct 22, 2014

Lambing is around the 100% although last year was down at around 80 weaning was around 70 this year. my aim at the moment is to try and get to a weaning of 100%. Hopefully at the same time improving the quality.
you could have a point with them being bred and coping with deficiencies will see what the blood tests tell me next week. It is a fine balance. often find that any ewes i have that are empty or loose a lamb early one year will have twins the next so might end up with a few extra twins this year but we will see.

Hillfarmer18 · Oct 22, 2014

Think it's best to get them on to better grazing about 6 weeks before going to the tup

Old Tip · Oct 22, 2014

Hillfarmer18 said:
Think it's best to get them on to better grazing about 6 weeks before going to the tup

In an ideal world it is the best policy but its imposible on our sort of farms @Hillfarmer18 we just don't have the inside ground, i don't even tup on inside ground just on enclosed hill and only bring them in a few days before the tups come in as they would be eaten up in a couple of weeks if i brought them in any sooner. Also twins are a pain so don't want more lambs per ewe just ever ewe to have a lamb with a few twins to make up for loses.

spark_28 · Oct 22, 2014

When do you wean?

Personally I feel with Hill sheep all your decisions should focus soley on your sheep, yes the lambs make money but no sheep no lambs. could you lamb later and wean earlier giving your sheep the best chance on both sides, more grass at Lambing plus longer to get back into condition. Ideally I wean my lambs early September, send the ewes back out and leave the ewe lambs in for a couple of weeks. Bring the ewes back in October and give them crystalyx to push them on a little. Let them back out for a few weeks then bring back into tup. After tupping I put them back onto the hill and they might have a bucket or two of crystalyx if I have any but if not they won't see crystalyx again till about 7 weeks before Lambing. Start giving them a bit of cake about 3 weeks before Lambing. If I scanned things would be different but we don't get a scanner over here.

d.iainm · Oct 22, 2014

spark_28 said:
When do you wean?

Personally I feel with Hill sheep all your decisions should focus soley on your sheep, yes the lambs make money but no sheep no lambs. could you lamb later and wean earlier giving your sheep the best chance on both sides, more grass at Lambing plus longer to get back into condition. Ideally I wean my lambs early September, send the ewes back out and leave the ewe lambs in for a couple of weeks. Bring the ewes back in October and give them crystalyx to push them on a little. Let them back out for a few weeks then bring back into tup. After tupping I put them back onto the hill and they might have a bucket or two of crystalyx if I have any but if not they won't see crystalyx again till about 7 weeks before Lambing. Start giving them a bit of cake about 3 weeks before Lambing. If I scanned things would be different but we don't get a scanner over here.

usually start lambing mid april then wean early aug. aim for the lambs to average 100 days to give the ewe plenty time to recover. don't give them any buckets did before and then gave it to some and not other never saw any difference so for me could'nt justify buying buckets. Usually about 3 weeks before lambing that they get fed just depends on managing to work with my neighbour to get the gathering done. Scanning could be usefull but it would either mean another day gathering or keeping them in and feeding them.

NZDan · Oct 23, 2014

d.iainm said:
Main aim at the moment with the flock is to increase the lambing and the weaning %. Last year was a bit of a disaster so hoping the coming year will be alot better. getting some ewes blood tested tomorrow to see if they are lacking anything that can be sorted with a bolus.
Going to harness the ram this year and change the colour after a few weeks to see if there any returning to the ram.
Had most of the gimmers empty last year so tempted to keep them inbye this winter and get them scanned(don't normally scan). then get blood tests done on them if they show as having alot empty this year again. Can't scan them all as don't have enough inbye grazing although in the future if i manage to increase the lambing % it would be worth while.
The ewes will be going to the ram on land that has been empty since aug and they will be getting a fluke and worm dose when they go with the ram.
Anyone have any thoughts on anything else i could be doing to try and improve things.

Got a scanner in mind ;-)

neilo said:
Have they been jabbed with Toxovax? Lots of empty first timers screams Toxo as the most likely candidate. Have you blood tested for that (FOC via Vaccine company/vet IIRC)? Might be a bit late for jabbing this year now, as needs 30 days before tups go in.

I'm sure that a lot of dry Hill ewes are because of Toxo, it seems the Highland vets really don't want to know about it for some reason.

improving lambing%

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