Is it worth arguing?

JJT · Oct 20, 2014

Well an update to this thread, I rang the buyer and he agreed that the agreed that the first load at 6.6% splits was an anomalous result so agreed that they would re test threat load (the second load tested ok). Had a phone call back this morning, new test result was 4.75% so with in the 5% limit and they would cancel the reduction

so credit where it's due

to gleadell

Grain Buyer · Oct 20, 2014

well done you. A bit of a sit down and a chat with your buyer, and everything is resolved. Turned out you didn't have to threaten them with legal action, ban them from the farm, or give him a good kicking.

Wiltshire Bob · Oct 21, 2014

Why is it Grain merchants are always out to rob farmers? Truth is they are not, Having worked for two, Loading boats, working in the lab, taking claims, sampling grain in farmers sheds and buying grain, have farmers not noticed that there is a massive variance in a heap of grain, Beans, wheat whatever the crop.
I have never seen any Claim rigging and Grain buyer is correct with his point on fixing numbers/tipping references being mixed up.
In fact I know that some merchants go out of their way to get the best option for their customers whether that be getting loads retested at the destination and in the unlucky situation of a rejection sending it to the best/most convenient home.
Grain merchants do not want to purposely annoy farmers and I remember as a farm buyer it was never fun calling farmers with a claim or a rejection. As somehow it was always my fault, or the classic, “I don’t have ergot in my wheat”. Always a personal favourite of mine, but then after a bit of looking, it was there, Not many farmers would call back and apologise that they gave me hassle for nothing or agree they had ergot. I would personally get the sample and go and see them, that would make things a bit better but some still thought I was making it up and trying to take the mick out of them. Why would we want to do that, Merchants need farmers and farmers need merchants.
If there is a issue/claim its worth calling the merchant and asking what it was for, was it out of character with the samples that were taken etc.
Like Static said farmers get paid on wet weight on boats and they can accommodate some and the fall backs are cheaper than drying.
Just learn to get along, we are all in this together

Hampton · Oct 21, 2014

Wiltshire Bob said:
Why is it Grain merchants are always out to rob farmers? Truth is they are not, Having worked for two, Loading boats, working in the lab, taking claims, sampling grain in farmers sheds and buying grain, have farmers not noticed that there is a massive variance in a heap of grain, Beans, wheat whatever the crop.
I have never seen any Claim rigging and Grain buyer is correct with his point on fixing numbers/tipping references being mixed up.
In fact I know that some merchants go out of their way to get the best option for their customers whether that be getting loads retested at the destination and in the unlucky situation of a rejection sending it to the best/most convenient home.
Grain merchants do not want to purposely annoy farmers and I remember as a farm buyer it was never fun calling farmers with a claim or a rejection. As somehow it was always my fault, or the classic, “I don’t have ergot in my wheat”. Always a personal favourite of mine, but then after a bit of looking, it was there, Not many farmers would call back and apologise that they gave me hassle for nothing or agree they had ergot. I would personally get the sample and go and see them, that would make things a bit better but some still thought I was making it up and trying to take the mick out of them. Why would we want to do that, Merchants need farmers and farmers need merchants. With what
If there is a issue/claim its worth calling the merchant and asking what it was for, was it out of character with the samples that were taken etc.
Like Static said farmers get paid on wet weight on boats and they can accommodate some and the fall backs are cheaper than drying.
Just learn to get along, we are all in this together

I agree with what you say, and I think we all have our "favourite grain buyers who we deal with more than others. I have a couple of questions/observations that is probably the reason why I am more of a sceptic than a believer however.
Firstly, this years harvest pool. I have a few loads in with a firm I won't name who are yet to tell us the price (why?) also on the day the pool was closed, the wheat price was still in the 120's. Why then is it likely that the price will be in the 130's like other pools I have seen are? Surely they are supposed to be better than us, and the traders I have seen on here we're telling us to clear out for months, why were the pool traders not doing likewise, or do farmers tend to commit to harvest pools right at the end?
Secondly one of my favourite grain traders has given notice to their firm. The replacement trader phoned me and said "I'd like to carry on dealng with you, but I won't tend to ring you with prices, so get in touch when you want to move some wheat". What do I do with this information? Phone up every few days (as the market alters so fast) to find out their advice on the market and prices but feel like your annoying someone, or only ring when I want to sell some wheat having tried to work out what the market is going to do myself?
As grain traders often tell me (and I agree) farmers can't expect to be master grain marketers without all the information at hand, but as I have highlighted above, is the advice always right for my business?

Wiltshire Bob · Oct 22, 2014

From my understanding, the pool will close at a set time to give everyone that has been told about pool marketing a clear date that if they want to submit tonnage they can and therefore (depending on company) a set pool tonnage is confirmed, so the trader/s responsible for marketing that pool knows his/her/their total tonnage. The traders use a vast arsenal of marketing tools that I have limited knowledge of to market and remarket the grain on the futures etc, I don't think pool marketing is there to give you the best price, its a risk management tool. It will give you a good average. Grain markets are so volatile, who can predict the future?

Some merchants will tell you what % pool is sold and what price and I know of only one that publish their pool results including previous years results so everyone can see.

As for your replacement trader, Seems a bit lazy to me, Shouldn't he be trying to get your business and make you trade with him? there are plenty of other merchants that would like to keep you informed.

Northdowns Martin · Oct 22, 2014

Clive said:
Every load out of here goes with one of these stapled to the passport

View attachment 72101

Clive I like your approach, we too have a Claydon sampler and retain a sample. As you state the sample results on the paperwork I assume you have testing facilities on the farm.

Clive · Oct 22, 2014

Northdowns Martin said:
Clive I like your approach, we too have a Claydon sampler and retain a sample. As you state the sample results on the paperwork I assume you have testing facilities on the farm.

Yes we have a GTAS certified "lab" (read fancy shipping container) as part of our 3rd party storage facility

In reality all that means is a well calibrated moisture meter, bushel and temp tester (pretty much as any farm would have just with a bit more paperwork to prove training and checking etc)

I think all farmers should test loads out and put and add a similar piece of paper to their passport - i don't think it matters if you are GTAS / TACSSC certified as all the paper is saying is if you don't agree with my results call BEFORE tipping and that they are aware you have a retained sample etc

we are selling the product so why can't we do it on OUR terms ?

Hampton · Oct 22, 2014

Wiltshire Bob said:
From my understanding, the pool will close at a set time to give everyone that has been told about pool marketing a clear date that if they want to submit tonnage they can and therefore (depending on company) a set pool tonnage is confirmed, so the trader/s responsible for marketing that pool knows his/her/their total tonnage. The traders use a vast arsenal of marketing tools that I have limited knowledge of to market and remarket the grain on the futures etc, I don't think pool marketing is there to give you the best price, its a risk management tool. It will give you a good average. Grain markets are so volatile, who can predict the future?

Some merchants will tell you what % pool is sold and what price and I know of only one that publish their pool results including previous years results so everyone can see.

As for your replacement trader, Seems a bit lazy to me, Shouldn't he be trying to get your business and make you trade with him? there are plenty of other merchants that would like to keep you informed.

I agree. I think I am going to have to do something about the new trader, whether it's ask for someone else in the company, or deal with a new company, I am yet to decide.

With regards to the pool, I understand what you are saying and agree, it's a hindsight thing. But having said that, certain traders on here have advocated selling for months, and would have hit a better average in doing so than the pools will.

crazy_bull · Oct 22, 2014

Hampton said:
I agree. I think I am going to have to do something about the new trader, whether it's ask for someone else in the company, or deal with a new company, I am yet to decide.

With regards to the pool, I understand what you are saying and agree, it's a hindsight thing. But having said that, certain traders on here have advocated selling for months, and would have hit a better average in doing so than the pools will.

I have been advocating selling for a while but that didn't stop most of my growers ignoring that information until it got to £120 and below, everyone is clever with hindsight. I think an average price off the combine for wheat at over £130 is a bloody good price given where the market went to and came from, and OSR at £250+ is equally very good. Not sure how we got from sample results to pools but hey ho

C B

Hampton · Oct 22, 2014

crazy_bull said:
I have been advocating selling for a while but that didn't stop most of my growers ignoring that information until it got to £120 and below, everyone is clever with hindsight. I think an average price off the combine for wheat at over £130 is a bloody good price given where the market went to and came from, and OSR at £250+ is equally very good. Not sure how we got from sample results to pools but hey ho

C B

My last comment was actually a compliment to you.
The pool wasn't with your firm, but if I had taken your advice I would have beaten the pool, even on an average.
Sorry for the deviation on to pools, I was just making observations on the grain trade in reply to someone's comments

Wiltshire Bob · Oct 23, 2014

Hampton

I would suggest using a pool for more than a year, trying the same tonnage for say a min of 3 years and averaging the price out across those years. in my experience those that jump in and out of pools year in year out are the ones that lose out. As a percentage of your crop to sell it can't be a bad thing. For example there is a story out regarding Russia's possible winter kill today in the Ag press, this may lead to a rally on new crop which the pool should take into consideration. Many farmers will hold and wait for it to go higher. But what if it doesn't?

Is it worth arguing?

JJT

Member

Grain Buyer

Member

Wiltshire Bob

Member

Hampton

Member

Wiltshire Bob

Member

Northdowns Martin

Member

Clive

Staff Member

Hampton

Member

crazy_bull

Member

Hampton

Member

Wiltshire Bob

Member

SFI - What % were you taking out of production?

0 %

Up to 25%

25-50%

50-75%

75-100%

100% I’ve had enough of farming!

May Event: The most profitable farm diversification strategy 2024 - Mobile Data Centres

Share this page