How would you deal with this...?

Walterp · Oct 30, 2014

David. said:
For what it is worth, if you know in your heart of hearts that this is never going to work, much as you might wish otherwise, arrange things so he is redundant and pay him off. I have never regretted it, one of us was going to have to go, and it couldn't be me.

Sometimes, there's no easy answer to hard problems.

David's answer probably puts it best, even if many of us in your situation would wish it otherwise.

Others' advice about the legal situation is also spot-on, although I suspect that your family would want to arrange generous severance terms in any event. When I retired, I didn't consult the legislation about the redundancy packages I gave my staff, just my conscience: I paid generous sums, and we all remain friends. That, to me, was more important than the money. I suspect you'd feel the same way.

If it was me, I'd prefer (after taking advice) to have a meeting to discuss severance terms than discussing why the situation isn't working - one has a definite end, the other probably won't.

Hedge Hunter · Oct 30, 2014

FarmGeek said:
Without a clearly defined job description and a contract of employment you are leaving yourself wide open to a long dismissal case based on assumptions and precedence that have been in place since he 1st started on the farm and he will be in a very strong position when it comes down to his word against yours. If I was his legal counsel, with nothing in place, I would quickly do the maths on max pay out for constructive dismissal v's 40yr of redundancy and claim your were avoiding the redundancy and pursue you for both.

you have to prove constructive.

if he cant keep up with the work defined in his job description then he is unable to complete his duties.

working super hard with new employees sets a president and in no way is constructive dismissal.

not completeing duties within the hours of work defined in job description such as at 16.45 doing a fence repair which would be complete within the period of employment after failing to replace the power source when asked would result in mis-conduct with regards to livestock containment on the farm.

written warning.

jimmer · Oct 30, 2014

Fuzzy said:
Advertise his job in the local paper !!!!

i want to put a link to the scene from only fools and horses ,but feel it would be inappropriate

sorry @jemski but he needs to be told straight sooner rather than later

Brisel · Oct 30, 2014

Where I work now we have a policy of paying them off instead of offering the minimum possible then waitng for the fight. In the long term it's a good investment. Should you decide to get rid then state what you have to offer as a minimum then add at least 25% to it. If they try & fight it then drop back to the minimum. They will soon see that it would be best to take the settlement with a closure clause (to avoid any retrospective actions against you) & walk away.

Hedge Hunter · Oct 30, 2014

jimmer said:
i want to put a link to the scene from only fools and horses ,but feel it would be inappropriate

sorry @jemski but he needs to be told straight sooner rather than later

yes but she has a conscience unlike you.

also he will leave of his own accord soon enough is she employes a youngster.

she could get an apprentice from the college to learn sheep ,then the old guy would be invaluable with his vast knowledge of the lay out of the farm.

he will become annoyed at the questions and need for assistance by the youngster.........

the old guy that left where i worked couldn’t stomach youngsters lol.

Woolgatherer · Oct 30, 2014

Speaking as someone who's always been an employee, I would never speak to anyone boss or otherwise the way this man spoke to you, totally unacceptable. I wouldn't expect to be kept on by a boss who I treated this way so I think it'll be one of 2 issues.
First, he doesn't have any respect for you as either a boss or as a colleague. You need to change that if that's the case. If it's this then toughen up and go ahead with the formal warnings - and follow through if necessary.
BUT I would speak to him first on an informal basis - to get an impression of what's wrong. He could be struggling with something you don't know about, a health problem, depression etc. he may tell you about this over a cup of tea. If it's this then he's still valuable to you (although he could lose the snotty attitude), maybe pay by the hour so that if he's not well he can work less and pick up more on a good day.
Speak first, get an overall impression then if it's just attitude then jump on him hard, you'll never be able to work with someone who behaves like that.

Jon.S · Oct 30, 2014

Perhaps the first question you should ask is "do I really need him"? If your having to do most of the work yourself anyway then is his wage bill justified? Is it a possibility to cut his hours? After all if he's disappearing home early and taking two hours for his dinner he sounds pretty much part time anyway. Or at least he's treating it as such on full time wages. Could he be replaced by employing someone say two days a week who is keen and would get a lot done whilst keeping him with severely reduced hours to do his bare minimum? If he complains then just say " well you refused to do it so I had to find someone who would"

Absolutely no disrespect as he's obviously been a close family associate for years but it sounds like he's bought a ticket on the gravy train and all he's doing is treating you like some sort of idiot.

Probably be best to put it in front of your family and let them know why your doing this so they know what he's actually like. If they don't like it, well who's the one who has to put up with him?

snowhite · Oct 30, 2014

Hedge Hunter said:
yes but she has a conscience unlike you.

also he will leave of his own accord soon enough is she employes a youngster.

she could get an apprentice from the college to learn sheep ,then the old guy would be invaluable with his vast knowledge of the lay out of the farm.

he will become annoyed at the questions and need for assistance by the youngster.........

the old guy that left where i worked couldn’t stomach youngsters lol.

you might have a point

Hedge Hunter · Oct 30, 2014

snowhite said:
you might have a point

yes its quite simple out with the old in with the new.the old have to adapt or be out gunned....

just a thought but it worked for me.

regimented breaks for lunch and cribb etc. they really hate that lol.

llamedos · Oct 30, 2014

Wonder if the chap has put 'how would you deal with this' into google

snowhite · Oct 30, 2014

all people are different , and he might begrudge the son taking over and have a chip ,

Hedge Hunter · Oct 30, 2014

bet if he searches minimum wage he has a shock !!!

snowhite · Oct 30, 2014

if he has to go what will it cost

Hedge Hunter · Oct 30, 2014

snowhite said:
if he has to go what will it cost

na.

if he has to go it will be his choice.

jemski is quite clear that he can stay if he works for his money.

jemski · Oct 30, 2014

Thank you for all your advice.

He is not officially on the farm payroll anymore, but the golf courses which makes it trickier. He is due a redundancy payment from the farm as well but has agreed to wait for that until the house is sold and there is some money. However, the farm company has a half share in the golf course company so still my employee but it's complicated!!!!!!

I spoke to him this morning. He said that he feels pulled in different directions and that he doesn't stop but I said jobs just aren't getting done and I understand it's a difficult adjustment period but it's hard for me too. I need the farm to work. He said his wages had been cut and I wish I had been quick enough to say he was lucky we were able to still give him a job but my brain wasn't working quick enough!!! I said I didn't want to fall out with him but as it was it wasn't working and that I wouldn't stand for being spoken to like that. We ended up on good terms and he's now working away on a permanent mains electric fence that needs some attention. Hopefully this will have woken him up. I think he has just had it too easy for too long and doesn't actually know what hard work is anymore plus he is struggling with the loss of my dad after so many years and all the sudden change. When all the fencing is up together he will be doing more on the golf course, which I think will be a bit of a shock to the system for him. They definitely don't stop for the rain! I've worked there, I know!!!!!!

Bignor Farmer · Oct 30, 2014

As a long term employee and friend of your fathers you owe this guy a fair opportunity to change his ways and adapt to your way of working. However, you do need to be prepared to part company if it doesn't work out. You don't owe him a free wage for life without even a basic level of respect for you as the boss.

Unfortunately I suspect he's unlikely to change, I can't think of any examples where people have. You're better off agreeing a severance package with him and getting you business in the shape you want it. Farming can be hard enough without carrying deadweight.

He might also find a change of job/farm/system somewhere else re motivates him and improves his quality of life, especially with a severance cheque in his back pocket from you.

Danllan · Oct 30, 2014

Not a nice situation, was in a similar one (not an ag' business, tyres etc.) when one of my dad's firms came over to me after he died. The fellow had been with him since the start of the firm and was very helpful and useful for about a year after I took over (by the way, I was running the firm but only present for maybe 20% of a given week). After the first year he started slacking a bit, and then a bit more and a bit more until it was taking the pi**. I tried an informal chat which ended in a 'f*** you' walk out (I promise I didn't swear once and barely raised my voice), then a written warning but... he had me over a bit of an emotional barrel since I knew dad had really liked him, trusted him and had relied on him a lot.

In the end I kept as accurate a record of what he did - and didn't do - for a couple of months and then just took him to one side while the other blokes were there, but out of earshot, and showed him all my evidence and asked 'what would you do if one of the lads spoke to you like that and acted as you have, advise me?' He was honest enough to admit that the guy would get another warning and be sacked after that. We haven't been very friendly since, which I'm not too bothered about, but he was fine after that until he went off to do his own thing a few years later.

Don't feel too obliged to him, your dad undoubtedly liked him but would have put your interest first, so should you.

Hedge Hunter · Oct 30, 2014

well thats a start jemski.

prehaps instead of redundancy you could persuade the golf course to take him as a going concern....

Henarar · Oct 30, 2014

jemski said:
Thank you for all your advice.

He is not officially on the farm payroll anymore, but the golf courses which makes it trickier. He is due a redundancy payment from the farm as well but has agreed to wait for that until the house is sold and there is some money. However, the farm company has a half share in the golf course company so still my employee but it's complicated!!!!!!

I spoke to him this morning. He said that he feels pulled in different directions and that he doesn't stop but I said jobs just aren't getting done and I understand it's a difficult adjustment period but it's hard for me too. I need the farm to work. He said his wages had been cut and I wish I had been quick enough to say he was lucky we were able to still give him a job but my brain wasn't working quick enough!!! I said I didn't want to fall out with him but as it was it wasn't working and that I wouldn't stand for being spoken to like that. We ended up on good terms and he's now working away on a permanent mains electric fence that needs some attention. Hopefully this will have woken him up. I think he has just had it too easy for too long and doesn't actually know what hard work is anymore plus he is struggling with the loss of my dad after so many years and all the sudden change. When all the fencing is up together he will be doing more on the golf course, which I think will be a bit of a shock to the system for him. They definitely don't stop for the rain! I've worked there, I know!!!!!!

Sounds like a complected set up you have there
I have never employed anyone or been employed good job after reading this but I have had to tell older more experienced people what to do and its not easy at all but you have to make your mark if you want to farm there long term and you have to do it your way or it won't work
I hope it works out for both of you but it has to work your way

AJR75 · Oct 30, 2014

@jemski What do you want the ultimate end outcome to be with this chap? You feel loyal to him, that's understandable but, I'm guessing that you already really know what you would like to happen, be that a decent working relationship or termination. Once you have clarity on this you can start to move forward in whichever direction is appropriate.

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