SilliamWhale
Member
Indeed. I'm well aware you don't like being challenged on your opinions very much. Which is why it is important to challenge them. I think I do it rationally rather than rudely but each to their own.
The Cross slot vs 750a trial
- Thread starter Clive
- Start date
Indeed. I'm well aware you don't like being challenged on your opinions very much. Which is why it is important to challenge them. I think I do it rationally rather than rudely but each to their own.
mikep
Member
- Location
- Arse end of Surrey, UK
Why all the bother. If an idea or tool is sound it will show itself. The 750a is rather reluctantly marketed by JD but has many fans here and indeed buyers who are convinced of its merits. The CS is not really on the radar and despite a lot of discussion there does not seem to be a concensus that it is worth the money, this speaks for itself I feel.
If a tool is good then you don't have to study the 'fine print' to see that.
If a tool is good then you don't have to study the 'fine print' to see that.
binbusy
Member
- Location
- South Suffolk
Interesting thread gents.
Has anybody spoke to Jake freestone and asked him how he got a demo on farm?
Also what happened to the cross slot which was working in the trial plot at cereals about 7-8 years ago is that still in the UK?
Is it the drill demo the problem or taking it to Clives drill trial the problem? (I would imagine the latter)
Has anybody spoke to Jake freestone and asked him how he got a demo on farm?
Also what happened to the cross slot which was working in the trial plot at cereals about 7-8 years ago is that still in the UK?
Is it the drill demo the problem or taking it to Clives drill trial the problem? (I would imagine the latter)
dug
Member
- Location
- North Island, New Zealand
It has become apparent to me over the last few weeks this thread has run that some on here seemed have convinced themselves that the CS is an elaborate hoax designed to extract too much money from unsuspecting buyers.
Sure it's hard for you people there who may want to assess this further in your own conditions, and if the price was less it would be easier to maybe just buy one to do that.... But without a big presence there it will take time I guess.
If there is a suggestion CS are absolutely creaming it with an inflated price, then that would be way of the mark..... They are small group of people who are very enthusiastic about the benefits of notill and also how the CS can assist (I am talking about the people in NZ). They are doing the best they can with very very limited resources. That's not to say that everything is perfect, it is not.
Nevertheless it frequently occurs to me after reading stuff on the notill forums that the CS has plenty to offer, and would solve a few issues. It is not foolproof, and may not be the end all and be all, but it it is out there in some regions operating very successfully .
????
it's not a hoax, it surely a very good drill indeed and on paper yes its appears to solve a few common zero-till issues - its just a lot of money and therefore needs to prove its worth before many will part with cash vs much cheaper alternatives
simple really, just about every other machine manufacturer I have ever come across seems to get this concept !
warksfarmer
Member
Look the CS has been around for years and it's still no where near to the level of sales compared to most other big players (seedhawk, horsch, vaderstad etc etc)
Therefore they are doing something wrong if the product is so good!
It's far to expensive for what it is and the fact they think people will buy off paper is exactly why it's not selling in big numbers all around the world.
At the end of the day they can design but nobody in the company or involved in the company can market.
SilliamWhale
Member
I think its been marketed as a drill for solving problems which had since been solved more cheaply.
dontknowanything
Member
- Location
- Cambridge
I've never met anyone who thought that CS was expensive because of a big margin for Dr Baker et al. Not sure where you get that idea from @dug
I wonder if we all chipped in a bit to transport a CS to Clive's drill trial, and pay for its work, whether that offer would be taken up?
I doubt it, but would like to be proved wrong.
I wonder if we all chipped in a bit to transport a CS to Clive's drill trial, and pay for its work, whether that offer would be taken up?
I doubt it, but would like to be proved wrong.
dug
Member
- Location
- North Island, New Zealand
Can't think of specifics on that but I have heard the notion that how can the machines be more $$, Baker and co must be creaming it.... Part of issue is obviously low volume manufacture I guess leading to high per unit $, the other is I think they are speced quite highly and so then it depends on how an individual values those. If certain features are not thought necessary then the machine is simply thought too expensive for what it is.
dug
Member
- Location
- North Island, New Zealand
With regard to the hoax comment, that was a little tongue in check .... Nevertheless by saying CS don't want to turn up for a comparison because they know there is really nothing much to offer, seems to me to be implying that they are trying to extract $ for something that is not a happening thing.
In some regions if someone wants to have a go with one they have access to a contractor or farmer with one and just do it. If they are in the market for one they may use a contractor for a while or they may always be happy to use a contractor. I feel bad for you guys that it isn't easier to sort out something, and I don't want to seem like I'm hooking into anyone, just trying to balance out some of the views on here from a long time owner and operator of CS.
In some regions if someone wants to have a go with one they have access to a contractor or farmer with one and just do it. If they are in the market for one they may use a contractor for a while or they may always be happy to use a contractor. I feel bad for you guys that it isn't easier to sort out something, and I don't want to seem like I'm hooking into anyone, just trying to balance out some of the views on here from a long time owner and operator of CS.
dug
Member
- Location
- North Island, New Zealand
I take your point to some extent, although if that was true a lot of the issues that crop on this forum should not be here.
Again, I am in disagreement with some of the marketing angles that have been used as much as many of you. Credibility is lost when other machines are talked down when we all know that in the right hands and conditions they go well.
From time to time over the years I have asked myself whether I should run something else at lower cost. In the end it hasn't taken long to work out that for my situation, I don't think any other one machine could cover the range of conditions and offer consistent results. Through a machinery costing programme I have it clearly shows that the area covered per annum has a large effect on the overheads of a machine. So if I were to need extra machines to cover all my bases, each machine does less and overheads climb.
combineguy
Member
- Location
- New Zealand
CS has a total of about 8 staff, of which 3 are in assembly. So drawing comparisons with Vaderstad, Horsch etc is slightly hard
But saying that if you ring, a good chance Bill Ritchie or Dr John Baker will answer the phone
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Sound quite like they are building the machine that they can and selling enough in the areas that they have a presence and are therefore (and probably fairly) not that interested in chasing a market at the other side of the world. Just my opinion.
Would love to see one up in Scotland though.
SilliamWhale
Member
Have you read the Cross slot book as I call it? Its full of problems that the design of the Cross Slot seemingly "solved". Only they didn't seem to use a well tuned version the most popular no till drill in the world as a baseline for the testing. So in the main the book documents a range of problems which have already been solved at reasonably low price and this is demonstrated by the fact that long term no tillers are not purchasing Cross Slots in their droves.
It doesn't make me against the cross slot. Lets face it its only a disc opening a slot and a bit of metal dropping the seed in place (as they all are really).
I would expect it to have had some serious market share in somewhere like the USA and South America by now, and it doesn't. Them's the facts.
combineguy
Member
- Location
- New Zealand
combineguy
Member
- Location
- New Zealand
Your never going to be able to compete against major companies and the funds they have to promote their machines.
It makes more sense to concentrate on small niches present the market, or purpose built machines. Meeting these small niches dont particularly worry large manufacturers and there is point going mass market if you don't have the manufacturing ability. Also you can coexist without creating problems
SilliamWhale
Member
True. I agree it is in the main,a niche machine.
I think there is appetite for new no till drills etc though with different design features if they can bring something extra to the party. (ie people aren't buying green just because its green)
I doubt they are making a fortune, you can see a lot of the money in the machine as its a very heavy and maybe even unnecessarily significant engineered machine ?
The R&D behind this drill is surely significant as I also told are the legal bills protecting the design !
Also low volume must add to production cost - maybe more demo's and trial as this thread suggests would lead to higher volume of sales and then costs would come down
Maybe a CS 'lite' would sell ? pitched at 750a prices and built tooth price, ok it wouldn't be as good but at east it might sell in numbers and make CS some money - they have a good design so they should all be getting very wealthy on the back of it, the fact you say they are not proves they have things VERY wrong right now IMO
The R&D behind this drill is surely significant as I also told are the legal bills protecting the design !
Also low volume must add to production cost - maybe more demo's and trial as this thread suggests would lead to higher volume of sales and then costs would come down
Maybe a CS 'lite' would sell ? pitched at 750a prices and built tooth price, ok it wouldn't be as good but at east it might sell in numbers and make CS some money - they have a good design so they should all be getting very wealthy on the back of it, the fact you say they are not proves they have things VERY wrong right now IMO
combineguy
Member
- Location
- New Zealand
Just about all CS drills are made to order with the options which you want, so there is no such thing as a standard drill. When we got ours we had 6 pages of options and we still had other requests which were accommodated