Who's great idea was it to ban neonics?

[yellow belly]

the problem is some neonics can be sprayed

I cannot see how an autumn seed dressing can affect bees and the local evidence (anecdotal ) says bees are not affected

the biggest impact on bees is weather followed by varoa mite and its viruses
in 2012 bees needed feeding in august to keep their strength up to get through the winter many keepers did not feed early enough

my local bee farmers has not had problem with bees getting lost (one of the effects when bees are given massive doses in the lab)

in fact this year he has too many bees they have been swarming all over the place at levels not seen for years neonics were used last autumn

imho the biggest threat to bees is that farmers become unable to grow nector producing crops because of the banning of agrochem that allow a profit to be made

my beans and spring rape are full of wild life and have had several applications of insecticide

without the pest control we would stop productive agriculture return to dog and stick farming which was the norm in the 1930s on any thing but the best grade soils

 

[Brisel]

the problem is some neonics can be sprayed

Thiacloprid (Biscaya) is much less toxic to bees than clotianidin (Modesto), thiamexoam (Cruiser) & imidacloprid (Chinook/Gaucho).

 

[Tractor Boy]

the problem is some neonics can be sprayed

I cannot see how an autumn seed dressing can affect bees and the local evidence (anecdotal ) says bees are not affected

the biggest impact on bees is weather followed by varoa mite and its viruses
in 2012 bees needed feeding in august to keep their strength up to get through the winter many keepers did not feed early enough

my local bee farmers has not had problem with bees getting lost (one of the effects when bees are given massive doses in the lab)

in fact this year he has too many bees they have been swarming all over the place at levels not seen for years neonics were used last autumn

imho the biggest threat to bees is that farmers become unable to grow nector producing crops because of the banning of agrochem that allow a profit to be made

my beans and spring rape are full of wild life and have had several applications of insecticide

without the pest control we would stop productive agriculture return to dog and stick farming which was the norm in the 1930s on any thing but the best grade soils

Unfortunately you shot your argument in the foot by saying "my beans and spring rape are full of wildlife and have had several applications of insecticide". This may well show the people pushing the neonic ban that repeat pyrethroid doses don't do the harm we claim they will do.

 

[jammygit]

please don't shoot the messenger...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-27980344

 

[Green oak]

Anyone growing rape this year must have there head tested. Pain in the ass from the day one. Scratching around on all fours to see if in chitted or as my niece asked my brother why is uncle in the middle of the field praying!! Then see it wilting in front of your eyes as the sun is blazing down as you see the thunderstorms pass a few miles away. While being eaten by different mystery things you never see. Then being eaten be grey things you can very much see. By this time you can't have a life over winter and feel bad for watching sport on a Sunday cos someone has phoned up to say your fields are blue with the grey things so you trouge up a wet cold field cos you've spent a lot of money so far. Been told someone in the night has nicked the gas bottles for the ten bangers you have out and made a bloody mess. Well you've made it this far a little haggard pollen beetle are going mental and the insecticide is just making them sleepy for a few hours but you manage to get though to harvest and the last worry from the crop from hell is that hailstorm that is never going to miss the crop which has cost a fortune to grow done a ton and a half at best and is worth £240 of the combine. For me for the time being those days have gone!!

 

[B'o'B]

I read the Beeb article this morning, arial use on neo-nics? Not in the UK. Overspraying crops 20 times with neo-nics? Not in the UK. I actually think I am annoyed enough to lodge a formal complaint!

 

[llamedos]

From Farming today, this morning, relevant from 7:11 http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b047bsy6

 

[yellow belly]

Unfortunately you shot your argument in the foot by saying "my beans and spring rape are full of wildlife and have had several applications of insecticide". This may well show the people pushing the neonic ban that repeat pyrethroid doses don't do the harm we claim they will do.

in france they can ony spray at night
but if they make it too hard to control flee beetle pea and bean weevle bruchid beetle aphids ect no one will grow flowering crops which and the polinaters lose out

we will all be growing more spring barley every year low income but low input low risk cut the cloth to match the crop

 

[Yale]

Sown 21 May,looking good now after a shower.

If I could get a xxxxxxxx photo to upload,grr.

 

[Hampton]

That article is a disgrace to objective journalism! Notice how they have removed any way of commenting on the article apart from following on twitter.
It is a great example of why the bbc should no longer be funded by the tax payer (the TV license is quite obviously a tax on watching television).

 

[llamedos]

As of this afternoon I understand Syngenta has withdrawn its emergency use application, I am sure @Guy Smith may tell us more
a piece in FG including a Syngenta statement I believe

 

[Guy Smith]

Yes, syngenta have withdrawn their application because they now feel its too late to organise for this years seed. Its frustrating they couldn't get it through the regulatory process quicker. The shenanigans of the anti pesticide lobby in the media clearly hasn't helped and probably made the Government procrastinate.

 

[rob1]

I,m just going to hoover up some volunteers and plant them , never seen volunteer rape decimated by flea beetle

 

[Guy Smith]

Llamados has just kindly reminded me I ought to signpost this

http://www.nfuonline.com/news/press-centre/nfu-statement-on-syngenta-application-withdrawal/

Rob - one of the things I'm keen for the NFU to do this autumn is to listen out for farmers who struggle to establish rape because of flea beetle and lack of neonics.

 

[Chalky]

where in the media has the 'in field' impact of multiple pyrethroids(if they work against the pests that is- they certainly do against non-target organisms) been flagged up? Surely, once you get RSPB on side- you are home & dry. The lunatics may have some use??!!

 

[llamedos]

Released today

 

[Green oak]

Anyone growing rape this year must have there head tested. Pain in the ass from the day one. Scratching around on all fours to see if in chitted or as my niece asked my brother why is uncle in the middle of the field praying!! Then see it wilting in front of your eyes as the sun is blazing down as you see the thunderstorms pass a few miles away. While being eaten by different mystery things you never see. Then being eaten be grey things you can very much see. By this time you can't have a life over winter and feel bad for watching sport on a Sunday cos someone has phoned up to say your fields are blue with the grey things so you trouge up a wet cold field cos you've spent a lot of money so far. Been told someone in the night has nicked the gas bottles for the ten bangers you have out and made a bloody mess. Well you've made it this far a little haggard pollen beetle are going mental and the insecticide is just making them sleepy for a few hours but you manage to get though to harvest and the last worry from the crop from hell is that hailstorm that is never going to miss the crop which has cost a fortune to grow done a ton and a half at best and is worth £240 of the combine. For me for the time being those days have gone!!

And now you've harvested a little to early because there's thunderstorms around left it in store over the weekend and on Monday morning you start the fans up and there steam pilling out the door and your hearts just fell out your chest.

 

[Brisel]

Great. No proof that imidacloprid is the culprit either, just coincidence.

I blame badgers for the decline in bees - after all, their numbers declined since badger numbers went up. That's just as scientific as that load of twaddle and about as accurate!

 

[RushesToo]

The problem is that there really is a drop in bird life. It may be multi causal but you only have the data you have. Below are some examples of the problems

Birds
Species are counted
Bio mass isn't [KG of birds per area]
Predator / prey ratio isn't

Environment changes
Weather is counted.
Changes in extremes are counted,
Fertiliser is counted
changes in tillage aren't
Changes in rotation aren't
loss of mixed farming is - but the data is a complete mess, I assume not counted.

Chemicals
Amounts are counted
types are counted.

If you have a computer model then you plug in the easy numbers and find links.

Cause or chance [correlation verses causation]
Just because there is a link, doesn't mean this is the cause [correlation verses causation]
I can certainly associate the loss of swallows in a part of Wales over 800ft because cattle farming stopped, flies dropped massively in number and unsurprisingly the birds disappeared.

Looks at the "easy" data and this down to chemicals and fertiliser. Look at the real data and this is not the real cause but looks like it.

There is a cause to the loss of wildlife diversity, and in my self opinionated, pee'd off non provable opinion it is directly related to the loss of diversity in farming*. The increase in chemicals because everyone knows that if you have the same thing in the field year after year you get into an-winnable fight against something that really likes what you are doing - black grass anyone?

It is not rocket science, but I am sure that I am not the only one here that knows this in their bones.

* which is due to farming being a supplier of cheap foodstuffs for today and no longer custodians of the planet forever.

Why are people so stupid? [I do not necessarily exclude myself]

 

[RushesToo]

Oh and another example of not looking at the whole picture.
No hedgehogs - B&W prey abundance not included in the count.
Custodians of the planet would maintain a balance, maybe a change from the one that had existed before, but stop it and there are consequences.
Please feel free to add others that you know of.

I'll shut the door on my way out.