Cultan

warksfarmer · Feb 22, 2016

Clive said:
If i ever did it Lee I don't think we wouldn't be looking for more area to spread it over - its the logistics that make it complex and are all that is stopping me doing in now TBH, massive volumes to mix and apply. I doubt a 12m set up would be able to cover even 50% of our own area in a timely fashion

I keeping looking though and if I can find the mechanical solution to make it realistic it would be a no brainer to do it really

With spring crops in the mix wouldn't the application window be much bigger though. I know very little about it but isn't winter planted crops cultan applied anytime from now onwards? While spring crops would need it probably before planting so depending on crop type from say march through to may? thus giving an operating window from Feburary to May?

And are the volumes any more than normal liquid N? So in @Knockie 's case running down the field with 5000 litres on his quad track at 10m widths means potentially 25ha per load if applying 200l/ha (I have no idea on rates applied but just using 200l as an example?

I also though Cultan allowed a reduce amount of N applied due to it being a different form but also placed more accurately?

I'm interested in the idea but not really done any research so know very little other than bits picked up on here so I may well of misunderstood .......

Clive · Feb 22, 2016

warksfarmer said:
With spring crops in the mix wouldn't the application window be much bigger though. I know very little about it but isn't winter planted crops cultan applied anytime from now onwards? While spring crops would need it probably before planting so depending on crop type from say march through to may? thus giving an operating window from Feburary to May?

And are the volumes any more than normal liquid N? So in @Knockie 's case running down the field with 5000 litres on his quad track at 10m widths means potentially 25ha per load if applying 200l/ha (I have no idea on rates applied but just using 200l as an example?

I also though Cultan allowed a reduce amount of N applied due to it being a different form but also placed more accurately?

I'm interested in the idea but not really done any research so know very little other than bits picked up on here so I may well of misunderstood .......

it would want applying about now ish - you're looking at much lower N concentrations (straight AS is 8%) and you put it all on in one hit - so 1500 type L/ha applications rates !! - logistics of mixing and moving all that to a field is not simple, its not so much about placement but more that it's in the sol not on it so losses are minimal

however when you consider that it gives scope to more than half N rates and sing cheaper, kinder types of N as well without losing yield - its still worthy of consideration

quite doable but certainly a challenge !!

warksfarmer · Feb 22, 2016

Clive said:
it would want applying about now ish - you're looking at much lower N concentrations (straight AS is 8%) and you put it all on in one hit - so 1500 type L/ha applications rates !! - logistics of mixing and moving all that to a field is not simple, its not so much about placement but more that it's in the sol not on it so losses are minimal

however when you consider that it gives scope to more than half N rates and sing cheaper, kinder types of N as well without losing yield - its still worthy of consideration

quite doable but certainly a challenge !!

Oh ok thats a bit clearer so if your using 200kg/ha N now you'd be looking at reducing that to about 100kg/ha N but with an 8% product that would still be around 800l/ha in one hit assuming there is no SG calculation to take into account to get the rate right.

If the above is correct then a 5000l setup would be covering 6.25ha per load. Would the work rate be 6.25ha per hour with a 10-12m machine as its soil engaging then I guess the forward speed would be quite slow so that the depth was maintained?

So you'd need to get 6000 litres to the field every hour? Two 12,000 litre plastic tanks in grain trailers would do that wouldn't they? or if you've winter field static tanks in varying yard locations a smaller 6000 litres tank in a grain trailer would keep it going wouldn't it as you'd have an hour to fill it up each time?

Or am I miles out?

Clive · Feb 22, 2016

warksfarmer said:
Oh ok thats a bit clearer so if your using 200kg/ha N now you'd be looking at reducing that to about 100kg/ha N but with an 8% product that would still be around 800l/ha in one hit assuming there is no SG calculation to take into account to get the rate right.

If the above is correct then a 5000l setup would be covering 6.25ha per load. Would the work rate be 6.25ha per hour with a 10-12m machine as its soil engaging then I guess the forward speed would be quite slow so that the depth was maintained?

So you'd need to get 6000 litres to the field every hour? Two 12,000 litre plastic tanks in grain trailers would do that wouldn't they? or if you've winter field static tanks in varying yard locations a smaller 6000 litres tank in a grain trailer would keep it going wouldn't it as you'd have an hour to fill it up each time?

Or am I miles out?

you're not miles out, its certainly possible to do (as some are doing)

You also have to consider that you need to be able to mix the product as fast as you are using it

application (off tramlines) at this time of year can also be a challenge without making a mess

If I ever came across a well priced 12m bar I would be giving it some serious thought certainly

York · Feb 22, 2016

Clive said:
If i ever did it Lee I don't think we wouldn't be looking for more area to spread it over - its the logistics that make it complex and are all that is stopping me doing in now TBH, massive volumes to mix and apply. I doubt a 12m set up would be able to cover even 50% of our own area in a timely fashion

I keeping looking though and if I can find the mechanical solution to make it realistic it would be a no brainer to do it really

friend of mine is just finishing to renovate a used 12m 6th. l unit. He has a 170ha farm.
Even with small fields, like in the west, we can do easy 1800 in the spring.
Timely is a not rely critical as you think! Look, OSR you do in autumn, wheat you can do till end of tillering. So where is the bottle neck?
one of the contributors here on TFF, not too far from you, does produce his own liquid & inject whole farm for several years already.
there might be even a used 12m unit available in the rows of TFF writers.

Had just yesterday on this topic a call.
We have a saying: "Where there a determination to do - a way is found. where there is no will to do it there are multiple obstacles found not to do it."
York-Th.
p.s. we use on one site 20cbm stainless steal tanks with big mixing paddles to produce our own liquid for keeping 2x 12m units running. 20cbm needs 5 min mixing, empting the big bag of dry fertiliser into them takes longer....

Clive · Feb 22, 2016

York said:
friend of mine is just finishing to renovate a used 12m 6th. l unit. He has a 170ha farm.
Even with small fields, like in the west, we can do easy 1800 in the spring.
Timely is a not rely critical as you think! Look, OSR you do in autumn, wheat you can do till end of tillering. So where is the bottle neck?
one of the contributors here on TFF, not too far from you, does produce his own liquid & inject whole farm for several years already.
there might be even a used 12m unit available in the rows of TFF writers. Had just yesterday on this topic a call.
We have a saying: "Where there a determination to do - a way is found. where there is no will to do it there are multiple obstacles found not to do it."
York-Th.
p.s. we use on one site 20cbm stainless steal tanks with big mixing paddles to produce our own liquid for keeping 2x 12m units running. 20cbm needs 5 min mixing, empting the big bag of dry fertiliser into them takes longer....

Well if you hear of a well priced 12m unit for sale anytime please let me know

I'm sure I could find ways to make it work for us

York · Feb 23, 2016

Clive said:
Well if you hear of a well priced 12m unit for sale anytime please let me know
I'm sure I could find ways to make it work for us

maybe the people thinking of selling their 12 m unit are reading this and PM you, can't guarantee however.
York-Th.

mikep · Feb 24, 2016

Wondered what CULTAN was so I looked it up. The first result I got was a Czech paper which seems to give a rather less rosy picture with an active decrease in yield over CAN unit for unit.
It seems like a lot of these things keep your hand firmly in your pocket and your eye over the fence and let some other bugger waste their money first and see what happens.

York · Feb 24, 2016

mikep said:
Wondered what CULTAN was so I looked it up. The first result I got was a Czech paper which seems to give a rather less rosy picture with an active decrease in yield over CAN unit for unit.
It seems like a lot of these things keep your hand firmly in your pocket and your eye over the fence and let some other bugger waste their money first and see what happens.

Link please.
At my google search this is not on the top, not even at the 1st page on the search, so please the link.
Maybe google is already using a bio info of positive / negative personal vibrations toward a search topic? ;-)
York-Th.

mikep · Feb 24, 2016

York said:
Link please.
At my google search this is not on the top, not even at the 1st page on the search, so please the link.
Maybe google is already using a bio info of positive / negative personal vibrations toward a search topic? ;-)
York-Th.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...-Uk3G19e-km1u3UpQ&sig2=aaleignoyipX9IJVJDUaWQ

Jim Bullock · Feb 25, 2016

I am very interested in this concept and was lucky enough to be taken by York to see a rig working a few years ago in eastern Germany. For it to work you need a cheap source of ammonium sulphate as the cost of application (and logistics) is quite high. But in the long term I am sure it or some similar system has to be the way forward as it makes better use of the applied nitrogen (and sulphur).

mikep · Feb 25, 2016

Jim Bullock said:
I am very interested in this concept and was lucky enough to be taken by York to see a rig working a few years ago in eastern Germany. For it to work you need a cheap source of ammonium sulphate as the cost of application (and logistics) is quite high. But in the long term I am sure it or some similar system has to be the way forward as it makes better use of the applied nitrogen (and sulphur).

I think its the kind of system that may be valid on certain soils in certain areas in certain years. The trouble as you say is price of kit, its not the thing you really want to be a pioneer with and left with some very expensive glatting if it doesn't work. My instinct is this is one for drier climes and wait for a more usable mk 2 system.

Clive · Feb 25, 2016

York said:
maybe the people thinking of selling their 12 m unit are reading this and PM you, can't guarantee however.
York-Th.

no pm yet ! maybe they missed this thread ?

York · Feb 26, 2016

mikep said:
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...-Uk3G19e-km1u3UpQ&sig2=aaleignoyipX9IJVJDUaWQ

quote from page 540:
According to Sommer (2005) CULTAN fertilization should be performed only at the moment when wheat plants show clear symptoms of N-deficiency, which is usually at the end of tillering stage and at the beginning of stem elongation. At this stage, the plants of the control treatment were well supplied with nitrogen obtained from regeneration fertilization and their development was slightly advanced compared to CULTAN treatment. The CULTAN method manifests excessive growth in the second half of vegetation and the plants then catch up with or even gain upon those fertilized on ground surface with nitrate form of N
(Sommer 2003). Extreme drought in 2007 however prevented CULTAN treatments from catching up with the control plants in their development.
this is one observation which can lead to a stable reasoning.
The key is to look at how the plant's reacted after the fertiliser placed. "Excessive Growth" is reported and this shouldn't be, can't be, if it was a Ammonium nutrition.
Bear in mind that the used solution was a "Urea Ammonium sulphur" solution. The Urea bit has to be converted to Ammonium, which normally it does in a timely manner. This obviously wasn't the case as otherwise how you explain the "Excessive" growth and also matches to observations we have with this type of solution that under certain conditions & circumstances you don't get the "pure" CULTAN reaction in the plants. That is one of the reasons we are not using this solution......

Jim Bullock said:
I am very interested in this concept and was lucky enough to be taken by York to see a rig working a few years ago in eastern Germany. For it to work you need a cheap source of ammonium sulphate as the cost of application (and logistics) is quite high. But in the long term I am sure it or some similar system has to be the way forward as it makes better use of the applied nitrogen (and sulphur).

Yes, I remember well this trip and can tell you that this contractor now is operating 3 units and can't cope with demand. Even in his regions there are at least 2 other units working. All is more limited to availability of the needed N form than the demand. Makes it easy then to sieve the clients you are working for.
York-Th.

mikep · Feb 26, 2016

York said:
quote from page 540:
According to Sommer (2005) CULTAN fertilization should be performed only at the moment when wheat plants show clear symptoms of N-deficiency, which is usually at the end of tillering stage and at the beginning of stem elongation. At this stage, the plants of the control treatment were well supplied with nitrogen obtained from regeneration fertilization and their development was slightly advanced compared to CULTAN treatment. The CULTAN method manifests excessive growth in the second half of vegetation and the plants then catch up with or even gain upon those fertilized on ground surface with nitrate form of N
(Sommer 2003). Extreme drought in 2007 however prevented CULTAN treatments from catching up with the control plants in their development.
this is one observation which can lead to a stable reasoning.
the key is to look at how the palnt's reacted after the fertiliser placed. "Excessive Growth" is reported and this shouldn't be, can't be, if it was a Ammonium nutrition.
bear in mind that the used solution was a "Urea Ammonium sulphur" solution. The Urea bit has to be converted to Ammonium, which normally it does in a timely manner. This obviously wasn't the case as otherwise how you explain the "Excessive" growth and also matches to observations we have with this type of solution that under certain conditions & circumstances you don#t get the "pure" CULTAN reaction in the plants. That is one of the reasons we are not using this solution......

Yes, I remember well this trip and can tell you that this contractor now is operating 3 units and can't cope with demand. Even in his regions there are at least 2 other units working. All is more limited to availability of the needed N form than the demand. Makes it easy then to sieve the clients you are working for.
York-Th.

I really don't care at present as there is a lot more work to be done. If it just meant opening a different bag then give it a try but if its a big investment and a procedure that requires carrying huge loads on land at the most delicate times for soils then I would need a comprehensive local peer review study and widespread take up on heavy land to make me think its a runner.
In a few years time it may be the norm but so were stripper headers, square ploughs, ulv sprayers etc supposed to be they all work but not good enough for general use.

York · Feb 26, 2016

MikeP,
it will never be "for general" use....
& you are right, every one has to value what is important for him under his specific circumstances.
I know this is not polite by with"Waiting on local replicated trials" you might limit yourself, my impression, to see the difference of a Nitrate versa a Ammonium nutrition of your crops, the influence of it.. And that it's what it boils down to.

Even more so to think about is the influence of "broad casted N, to start with, on soil life & on top of this add as a variable the applied N form, be it nitrate, Urea or Ammonium.

one more aspect on the quoted CZ Paper:
one more point: CULTAN is not just placing N it's a whole system. they have started with way tooo many plants as we want in the system, as it's a "system approach", a plant to tiller ratio of 1 to 3 and a max. of 450 to 550 ears. the lower number for spring drought regions.
With this numbers there is still a potential of 10+ t/ha. My client is getting 8 to 9t/ha in Wheat & TritiKale, in PL, with 60+ seeds/m2.
York-Th.

mikep · Feb 26, 2016

York said:
MikeP,
it will never be "for general" use....
& you are right, every one has to value what is important for him under his specific circumstances.
I know this is not polite by with"Waiting on local replicated trials" you might limit yourself, my impression, to see the difference of a Nitrate versa a Ammonium nutrition of your crops, the influence of it.. And that it's what it boils down to.

Even more so to think about is the influence of "broad casted N, to start with, on soil life & on top of this add as a variable the applied N form, be it nitrate, Urea or Ammonium.

one more aspect on the quoted CZ Paper:
one more point: CULTAN is not just placing N it's a whole system. they have started with way tooo many plants as we want in the system, as it's a "system approach", a plant to tiller ratio of 1 to 3 and a max. of 450 to 550 ears. the lower number for spring drought regions.
With this numbers there is still a potential of 10+ t/ha. My client is getting 8 to 9t/ha in Wheat & TritiKale, in PL, with 60+ seeds/m2.
York-Th.

York I will not argue as to the efficacy as I do not study these things but I can tell you today I am putting a desperately needed top dressing on some wheat. I am only putting one bag of fert at a time in the spreader and it is on a light tractor because the ground is soft and with a full spreader I would make a mess, it would never carry the sort of weights need ed for cultan application. Five miles away on the green sand or chalk you could do it.
With these considerations it would need a proven track record even to think about it here and as all reports are not positive then I will wait it out for now.

The Ruminant · Feb 27, 2016

mikep said:
York I will not argue as to the efficacy as I do not study these things but I can tell you today I am putting a desperately needed top dressing on some wheat. I am only putting one bag of fert at a time in the spreader and it is on a light tractor because the ground is soft and with a full spreader I would make a mess, it would never carry the sort of weights need ed for cultan application. Five miles away on the green sand or chalk you could do it.
With these considerations it would need a proven track record even to think about it here and as all reports are not positive then I will wait it out for now.

Umbilical?

mikep · Feb 28, 2016

The Ruminant said:
Umbilical?

Pump tank tanker price?

Knockie · Mar 11, 2016

OK.....I cant stay silent forever, but as there's not that much Ammonium Sulphate kicking about the UK perhaps I don't want everyone jumping on board

You could say I am reasonably happy with the system

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