TED20 Engine Refurb.

Ley253 · Dec 17, 2016

John 1594 said:
This shows clearly the difference in attitudes between someone who has spent thier life on the shop floor with an un-limitless supply of parts and money all thier life, and someone who has been at the sharp end of "having to make do with what you get put in front of you

One...if your doing something as a favour, you get NO WARRANTY WHATSOEVER. This point is clear to both parties, there are also no comebacks. Written order for the work, yes if you worked in longbridge and half the time was spent on strike, a written order meant you actually had to do something

Aftermarker suppliers dont want to know about warranty either, i fitted a VAP oil pump to a dexta engine, it had a faulty non relief valve that meant the oil pressures were high enough to blow the sealing rings out of the filter. I sent it back, said it was a dud, didnt get a refund. I refitted the old pump and just took it as a lesson that VAP parts are in general, shite.

Very often, you have to do things "not by the book" in this trade. I had a customer turn up at 5pm on a bank holiday, desperate for a belt for thier straw chopper, rain was forecast for the monday. I didnt have a belt to fit, there wasnt any suppliers open, and a new belt couldnt be obtained until the tuesday.

However, i did have a belt what fitted, but was 6" too long. So, the belt tensioner was cut, a spacer welded into it to increase its range, and the longer belt was fitted, the customer was up and running by 7pm that night.

I take it you would have sent the customer off with "i havent got a belt, il sort one out on tuesday".........

Well, the answer to that is no, would have done the same as you did. if the mod tensioner failed, it would not result in more damage.
This what happened to the garage I worked for. Customer buys a used TD5 disco, the oil pump drive falls off and takes the engine out.We obtain a low hours engine from a redundant transmission test bed, fit it with a new oil pump, and fit to vehicle, it runs very well indeed, better then the original.Customer collects vehicle and is happy. Three days later customer returns, saying the engine is no good, and he wants a genuine LR replacement unit.We get an independent assessment, which confirms the engine is fine, so we refuse his demand. Customer goes to court, and wins his case, we were instructed to comply with his demand, and provide a loan vehicle during the repair . Costs were awarded against us as well.
We also had a well used 300tdi which had a head gasket failure, that had a rebore, new head etc, and was fine. Customer refused to accept the repair, demanding a new, not even a LR exchange engine. Went to court, won his case.

Mursal · Dec 17, 2016

I think we are getting mixed up with repairing an engine and the difficulty that can entail with liability for work carried out. They are two completely different things in my book.
If a customer is paying for work, or receiving work carried out under vehicle warranty, everything must be done by the book and they must pay accordingly for that. Whether its in the form of an invoice when the work is carried out or factored into the price paid for the vehicle. That's why main dealers are €80 - €120 an hour, to cover liability. With second year apprentices carrying out 90% of the work. And if the lads do 7 jobs today the service manager expects 8 successfully completed tomorrow.

If on the other hand its a favour for a friend, no warranty should apply or be expected. The grey area is when you ask the friend for costs you have incurred. If not totally explained some think (because it suits them to do so) this is actual payment for the work done, so expect a warranty. Ridiculous I know, but good mates of mine have been badly caught doing such work, for so called friends. Especially if they know you have the ability to pay ..............
That's why lads are reluctant to do a repair, its all or nothing now ......

The times we live in, its always someone else's fault ........

Ley253 · Dec 17, 2016

Mursal said:
I think we are getting mixed up with repairing an engine and the difficulty that can entail with liability for work carried out. They are two completely different things in my book.
If a customer is paying for work, or receiving work carried out under vehicle warranty, everything must be done by the book and they must pay accordingly for that. Whether its in the form of an invoice when the work is carried out or factored into the price paid for the vehicle. That's why main dealers are €80 - €120 an hour, to cover liability. With second year apprentices carrying out 90% of the work. And if the lads do 7 jobs today the service manager expects 8 successfully completed tomorrow.

If on the other hand its a favour for a friend, no warranty should apply or be expected. The grey area is when you ask the friend for costs you have incurred. If not totally explained some think (because it suits them to do so) this is actual payment for the work done, so expect a warranty. Ridiculous I know, but good mates of mine have been badly caught doing such work, for so called friends. Especially if they know you have the ability to pay ..............
That's why lads are reluctant to go a repair, its all or nothing now ......

The times we live in, its always someone else's fault ........

Quite. The above mentioned garage changed to selling vehicles which were still under manufactures warranty, had them serviced at the main dealers as well, and closed the workshop.
These days a warranty is expected, payment involved or not, and its not unknown for a vehicle with hidden defects to be booked in for work, so that when these defects come to light, someone else can be blamed.

DrWazzock · Dec 17, 2016

We'll just have to play it by ear. Plenty of food for thought though. I think the main thing is to make sure the customer knows that I can make no guarantees or warranties whatsoever on a 50 year old engine before I start. If he doesn't accept that, then he can take it elsewhere.

I might write some thing down to that effect before I start and get him to sign it. Because folk can be fickle. I've seen plenty of that.

I'm their last resort anyway. Nobody else will touch it but I thrive on that sort of thing. Off to pub now. First early finish this year now the calves are sold.

Ley253 · Dec 17, 2016

DrWazzock said:
We'll just have to play it by ear. Plenty of food for thought though. I think the main thing is to make sure the customer knows that I can make no guarantees or warranties whatsoever on a 50 year old engine before I start. If he doesn't accept that, then he can take it elsewhere.

I might write some thing down to that effect before I start and get him to sign it. Because folk can be fickle. I've seen plenty of that.

I'm their last resort anyway. Nobody else will touch it but I thrive on that sort of thing. Off to pub now. First early finish this year now the calves are sold.

You might be surprised. That 50 year old engine may well be in better condition than expected, it was designed to be repaired,not thrown away, unlike modern kit( LR TD5 for example). Only problem I can see, is obtaining taps and dies in bsf, as I think that is the thread used, should you need them. Otherwise, its a simple old beast.It may have a "casset" type crank assembly, in which the mains come out with the crank , similar to that in the 23c engine, and I have an idea that there may be a problem with the centre main housing becoming distorted over the years. If you go down the rebuild kit road, the kit suppliers will be able to advise on this.

MrNoo · Dec 17, 2016

Ley253 said:
You might be surprised. That 50 year old engine may well be in better condition than expected, it was designed to be repaired,not thrown away, unlike modern kit( LR TD5 for example). Only problem I can see, is obtaining taps and dies in bsf, as I think that is the thread used, should you need them. Otherwise, its a simple old beast.It may have a "casset" type crank assembly, in which the mains come out with the crank , similar to that in the 23c engine, and I have an idea that there may be a problem with the centre main housing becoming distorted over the years. If you go down the rebuild kit road, the kit suppliers will be able to advise on this.

No, the TED comes out the bottom like a normal engine, it is so simple. The TEF comes out the side with the mains, strange arrangement.
I would think a full rebuild of the engine wouldn't cost much more than 750 depending on any machining needed. To be fair, if you had the parts, you could strip/rebuild one easily in a morning.

crofter 65 · Dec 18, 2016

I think the threads are UNF and UNC but wouldn't expect trouble from them, the only ones I ever had trouble with were the bellhousing threads.

DrWazzock · Dec 22, 2016

What a lovely tractor to work on. Everything separates neatly. No big bundles of pipes and wires. Very refreshing.

MrNoo · Dec 22, 2016

DrWazzock said:
What a lovely tractor to work on. Everything separates neatly. No big bundles of pipes and wires. Very refreshing.

Yes, very satisfying and easy to work on!!!

Mursal · Dec 22, 2016

Anything to report?

DrWazzock · Dec 23, 2016

Not much yet. Bonnet, fuel tank, exhaust, front axle and steering away. About a pint of clear water drained out the sump before the oil. Could be condensation as oil not changed for years. Lots of mayonnaise round the rockers, but they don't seem too slack. Push rods all look straight. Should soon get more interesting.

DrWazzock · Jan 3, 2017

Had another look at it today. Got sump off and discovered number 1 conrod bearing shells very slack and have picked up on the journal at some point and rotated the shells slightly in the cap, shearing the locating tab off the shell. The other bigs ends all have a considerable amount of knock. Journals slightly scored but no major grooves.

Hardly surprising as no filter in the oil filter housing and been like it for 30 years apparently. Hope to regrind crank and fit new shells. Journals seem to have enough left on them according to my gauge.

Timing chain slack as a washing line and crankshaft sprocket looking a bit worn.

Can feel a small step at the top of the cylinders but Pistons don't show any sign of major scuffing and no rings broken. Not badly carboned up either. Looks like somebody did the head and bores before they sold it to my friend thirty years ago, but didn't do the crank as bottom gaskets look much older/undisturbed. Years of dirty oil then finished the bearings off. I don't know how it ended up without an oil filter.

Don't know whether to risk pulling the cylinder liners and just refurb the bearings.

There is a crack in the internal web in the block between cylinders 2 and 3 at top of block.

Can of worms.

John 1594 · Jan 3, 2017

Leave the pistons and sleeves alone!! Polish journals up, pay more care to no1, new set of shells and some nice thick SAE40 mineral oil and a new filter, sort timing chain and put it back together. Test oil pressure before returning to customer

edit...if going for re-grind...clearances will be minimal when its done, so strip oil pump to check for wear and to make sure its capable of producing pressure

worn bearings will tolerate low oil pressure, new bearings wont

But stay well away from the sleeves, especially now you have found cracks in the block

Mursal · Jan 3, 2017

Is No 1 the furthest away from the pump, I wonder

DrWazzock · Jan 3, 2017

it has had a new oil pressure gauge fitted in the last couple of years and a new thermostat and fhey managed to get some metric bolts into the imperial threads in the housing.

They must have been concerned about oil pressure. Maybe the filter was removed to try to improve it! Looks like the oil was never changed.

I didn't dare run the engine to look at pressure before strip down in case it threw a rod.

DrWazzock · Jan 3, 2017

John 1594 said:
Leave the pistons and sleeves alone!! Polish journals up, pay more care to no1, new set of shells and some nice thick SAE40 mineral oil and a new filter, sort timing chain and put it back together. Test oil pressure before returning to customer

edit...if going for re-grind...clearances will be minimal when its done, so strip oil pump to check for wear and to make sure its capable of producing pressure

worn bearings will tolerate low oil pressure, new bearings wont

But stay well away from the sleeves, especially now you have found cracks in the block

Sounds like good advice from what I can see. Thanks.

John 1594 · Jan 3, 2017

DrWazzock said:
it has had a new oil pressure gauge fitted in the last couple of years and a new thermostat and fhey managed to get some metric bolts into the imperial threads in the housing.

They must have been concerned about oil pressure. Maybe the filter was removed to try to improve it! Looks like the oil was never changed.

I didn't dare run the engine to look at pressure before strip down in case it threw a rod.

If the shells were as loose as you say, it would do well to have any pressure at all

but then, ive seen those 3 pot perkins as in a 35, run for years and on hot idle the needle has sat on the bottom of the gauge at about 5lb

as someone once told me, its not pressure that important with engine oil, its the flow rate

Mursal · Jan 3, 2017

I suppose a set of shells and a bit of time wouldn't break the bank ..............

DrWazzock · Jan 3, 2017

A new oil pump, a new set of shells and emerying up the crank might be a cost effective option.

It's not as if it's going on a dyno any time soon,

And a new timing chain.

Maybe.

DrWazzock · Jan 3, 2017

I think I need to remove the crank as it will be easier to clean the muck out of the oil ways and replace the seals which have been leaking badly. Will also be easier to emery and inspect the journals, clean out the oil holes etc.

TED20 Engine Refurb.

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

0 %

Up to 25%

25-50%

50-75%

75-100%

100% I’ve had enough of farming!

Share this page