The Two Simon's Theory

Alistair McLaren · May 7, 2014

Richard III said:
I always see a problem here if I drill into AMG or recently sprayed of couch grass, however I have yet to see a problem drilling into chopped straw with my Sim-Tec. This thread has got me worried, as I regularly drill rape and cover crops into heavy chopped straw in wet conditions.

Below is a picture of last years rape emerging through the straw, drilled at 30cm spacing.

View attachment 44282
The chopper on my combine doesn't seem to chop very well so I was planning to fit new blades this year, I'm not so sure now. No one else chops straw around here, so I have nothing to compare to, what do people think of the chop length? May be I've just been lucky so far.

The tine would sweep the trash away from the seed and also mineralise some soil N to act as a starter fert?

Clive · May 7, 2014

mikep said:
Funny old world, I took this (very poor) photo of oats drilled through an almost pure stand of AMG as it was the best part of the field. Will be interesting to see how it goes.

View attachment 44280

what pH is your soil ?

Gourlaw · May 7, 2014

The theory has three parts to it
1- Identified the problem, which most of us all agree
2- Identify the cause
3- Identify the solution, which seems to be gaining a consensus ie apply lime to increase local ph (although this may increase potential take-all) , sow earlier in drier conditions, place fert close to seed if possible, use crop rotation

My questions is has the theory identified the correct cause? To quote from the previous papers I posted "Two studies conducted in two different fields separated by about 70 miles in eastern Washington, both direct-seeded (no-till), confirmed that wheat yields can be depressed significantly by straw on the soil surface, but showed further that the organism(s) responsible for the yield-depressing effect of straw are in the soil and not in the straw" and "Pythium species are most active as seedling and root pathogens in soils with moisture contents at field capacity or above, and in soils high in clay content and low in soil pH" and "Cold wet trashy seedbeds typical of direct-seed systems will tend to favor greater damage caused by Pythium. This is because of the favorable effects of low temperature and high soil moisture on Pythium and possibly also the stimulatory effects of fresh wheat straw on Pythium as a saprophyte in soil"

I am not saying Pythium this is the cause, but did the two Simons consider this as a possible contributory factor?

SilliamWhale · May 7, 2014

@Richard III - the consensus was that in the Autumn the issue rarely seems to raise its head and that this is temperature related.

Also does it affect a brassica as much? For example lots of kiwis spray off and drill brassicas quite quickly (but usually when temperatures are up).

It will be interesting to try some spring barley with some calciprill nexy year. It would probably cost me about £5/acre for the calciprill to do it.

Simon Chiles · May 7, 2014

Clive said:
what pH is your soil ?

Mike's soil is the same as mine, as a guess probably pH 6-6.5. The point is that his ground wouldn't have been saturated this spring, therefore no anaerobic conditions and not a problem.

Richard III · May 7, 2014

SilliamWhale said:
@Richard III - the consensus was that in the Autumn the issue rarely seems to raise its head and that this is temperature related.

Also does it affect a brassica as much? For example lots of kiwis spray off and drill brassicas quite quickly (but usually when temperatures are up).

It will be interesting to try some spring barley with some calciprill nexy year. It would probably cost me about £5/acre for the calciprill to do it.

I thought it was a problem in rape establishment in wet autumn's?

@Hartwig has been complaining about straw being toxic to rape establishment for a while now. Two years ago he built a drill to try and sweep the straw away from the row, and last year he gave up and baled it.

Simon Chiles · May 7, 2014

SilliamWhale said:
@Richard III - the consensus was that in the Autumn the issue rarely seems to raise its head and that this is temperature related.

Also does it affect a brassica as much? For example lots of kiwis spray off and drill brassicas quite quickly (but usually when temperatures are up).

It will be interesting to try some spring barley with some calciprill nexy year. It would probably cost me about £5/acre for the calciprill to do it.

The problem can occur in the autumn, possibly even more likely as you are going into lower temperatures and the chance of wetter conditions. It's all about the weather conditions after you've drilled that are important . I say to people " you tell me what the weather is going to be for the next 8 weeks and then I'll tell you if it'll work".
The point is that in conditions that have a low risk of a problem then row cleaners and leading tines can just make a difference. However in severe cases these aren't enough and IMO can't be relied upon. Applying the lime acts as an insurance against the possibility of the acid produced by the decaying material.

Clive · May 7, 2014

Andy Howard said:
This is an exert from Phil wheeler and Crop Services International. It was also in Acres USA recently. Liming plus pre em in one pass. Would to see whether this has any real evidence!
WEED CONTROL: CSI’s original weed control formula was 2 gallons of molasses and 2 gallons of liquid Calcium chelate in 20 gallons of water sprayed on top of the soil as soon as possible after last disturbance of soil by any implement including the planter. This works because the available Calcium tells the grass seeds that they are not needed and the molasses, which activates bacteria that release Phosphorus, tells the broadleaf weed seed that they are not needed. Astute farmers rigged up booms behind the planter connected to a saddle tank to plant and treat all in one pass. Separate passes must be as soon as possible and after 24 hours, forget It! You can also use the formulas at reduced rates to keep suppression going through the season in low growing crops.

CSI now has at least 4 options for the material used with the 2 gallons of molasses: Regular liquid Calcium chelate & organic liquid Calcium chelate (used at the 2 gallon rate) & PhosCal 22 liquid and Premium Cal 33 liquid (used at the 2 qt rate). A California rice grower reported total control of Water Grass in one of his paddies using the above

so where can we get calcium chelate ? and at what kind of cost ? this looks like a much more practical option than large qty of soild calcifert

Feldspar · May 7, 2014

Clive said:
so where can we get calcium chelate ? and at what kind of cost ? this looks like a much more practical option than large qty of soild calcifert

Might be an ideal thing to apply through your liquid fert kit on the drill. Nice and targeted.

Clive · May 7, 2014

Feldspar said:
Might be an ideal thing to apply through your liquid fert kit on the drill. Nice and targeted.

That was my thinking, the rates mentioned in @Andy Howard post look more practical. I also have had a long help hunch that placing molasses would be useful so a calcium / molasses liquid mix maybe with a bit of N would be simple

probably a (very) daft thought but how much calcium in milk ?? quick google says 12% ish ??

Feldspar · May 7, 2014

Clive said:
That was my thinking, the rates mentioned in @Andy Howard post look more practical. I also have had a long help hunch that placing molasses would be useful so a calcium / molasses liquid mix maybe with a bit of N would be simple

probably a (very) daft thought but how much calcium in milk ?? quick google says 12% ish ??

Perhaps you should mount a cow on the front of the tractor instead. Pipes from the udders with a few Y splitters to each coulter. Cow can graze cover crop as you go along. Micro-nutrients in the milk to ensure optimal start to crop growth. Cow can add vital manure. Use front linkage to keep cow off ground and reduce poaching. I think I've just invented a revolutionary form of strip grazing.

ETA: even better - wasn't glyphosate used as a wormer? If so, feed cow glyphosate to ensure timely termination of cover crop through glyphosate-laden milk, and keep cow healthy at the same time. I'm going to be rich.

Hartwig · May 7, 2014

Richard III said:
I thought it was a problem in rape establishment in wet autumn's?
@Hartwig has been complaining about straw being toxic to rape establishment for a while now. Two years ago he built a drill to try and sweep the straw away from the row, and last year he gave up and baled it.

That`s right, I used that tined drill in one field with baled straw and one with chopped straw. The baled field survived reasonably well, less slugs, the chopped field was a desaster, lots of slugs and where there was water standing after all the rains we had, it was just brown from the straw I guess.
This year was dry and I baled the straw, perfect OSR now. Different story.

Pedders · May 7, 2014

Hartwig said:
That`s right, I used that tined drill in one field with baled straw and one with chopped straw. The baled field survived reasonably well, less slugs, the chopped field was a desaster, lots of slugs and where there was water standing after all the rains we had, it was just brown from the straw I guess.
This year was dry and I baled the straw, perfect OSR now. Different story.

so why not just remove the straw and save all the aggro ?

this bears out my experiences here over the last three years ..where ground is trashy either from grasses or volunteers or straw.. spring barley struggles.. in future here all Spring Crops will be going into completely clean stubbles ...either very early sprayed off with Glyphosate or preferably heavily grazed with sheep.. down to bare ground ideally

Clive · May 7, 2014

Pedders said:
so why not just remove the straw and save all the aggro ?

this bears out my experiences here over the last three years ..where ground is trashy either from grasses or volunteers or straw.. spring barley struggles.. in future here all Spring Crops will be going into completely clean stubbles ...either very early sprayed off with Glyphosate or preferably heavily grazed with sheep down to bare ground ideally

Do you think oats still have a place in cover crop mixes ?

Simon Chiles · May 7, 2014

Clive said:
Do you think oats still have a place in cover crop mixes ?

Yes provided you plough them in, terminate them at least 8 weeks before dd or graze them really hard. If all of these aren't possible chuck some prilled lime on or don't put them in the mix in the first place.

Feldspar · May 7, 2014

And what do we think about high pH soils with a large amount of free calcium in the soil (93% on the Albrecht test)? We have never limed our predominant soil type which is chalky boulder clay.

Pedders · May 7, 2014

Clive said:
Do you think oats still have a place in cover crop mixes ?

I do but very much along the lines above by Simon .......
still don't understand why you all just don't decide to bale everything prior to DD ....
Harry Allen wrote in 1981 p 66 'disposal of cereal straw is essential for successful direct drilling '

Clive · May 7, 2014

Pedders said:
I do but very much along the lines above by Simon .......
still don't understand why you all just don't decide to bale everything prior to DD ....
Harry Allen wrote in 1981 p 66 'disposal of cereal straw is essential for successful direct drilling '

i want the OM on my light soils - see post by @RushesToo to see why

SilliamWhale · May 7, 2014

Pedders said:
I do but very much along the lines above by Simon .......
still don't understand why you all just don't decide to bale everything prior to DD ....
Harry Allen wrote in 1981 p 66 'disposal of cereal straw is essential for successful direct drilling '

But isn't it one of the reasons it ran into trouble eventually? less straw = less soil food?

SilliamWhale · May 7, 2014

@Simon Chiles - have you proved that your pelleted lime made a difference in establishment? ie have you got any comparisons from this spring? (I'm agreeing with by the way and spring barley seems the fussy bugger - wheat seems ok and anything sprayed pre 8 weeks is ok too - I have one field sprayed 6 weeks or less before and it is showing signs - not terrible but just places - but I did have more trouble last year but i'm not sure in the end the yield was worse because of it but my plants didn't have much spring in their step)

Also I wonder why this bloke when i asked the question on newagtalk came back with this (canadian)

We have cooler soils than most anyone one here, and grow cereals, pulses, oilseeds. I have never observed anything like what is being described, and have never heard anyone mention it before. We often are planting into soils under 5 degrees C, because we have no choice. No one waits for a specific soil temp, because we simply have no time to waste.

IMO, maybe it is normal alleopathic effects of certain weeds? Because several weeds do have an alleopathic effect, and upon dying off, release chemicals that can harm crops.

But I have taken over some pretty darn neglected, weed infested land, sprayed with a couple litres of glyph. to clean it up in the spring, and had excellent stands and crops.
BTW this is all no till, with very high residue. And we spray the day prior to seeding as well, sometimes the same day, if the sprayer is out early.

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