mob stocking

I have been mob grazing for about 4 years now and the permanent pastures have increased in quality and quantity.

But we are now getting a lot of buttercups in the sward. I do not think that the mob grazing has caused it, they are taking over the lawn as well.

Is it worth doing anything about them? The cattle eat them right down and they must have some nutritional value.

We have not limed or reseeded any fields, i am hoping everything will come right just from the mob grazing as Greg Judy says.

I wouldn't say it would just come right necessarily. You would need to know what kind of soil fertility you are dealing with - you may be low in P or pH
 

5312

Member
Location
South Wales
The soil has not been tested for a long time but we are on limestone.

I wasn't sure if it is worth worrying about at present, we have far more grass than we need right now. We are understocked and I am keeping as many heifers as possible each year. But the farm was quite run down when I took over.

Why can't some clever scientist improve the nutritional value of buttercups, they grow like crazy here :)
 
The soil has not been tested for a long time but we are on limestone.

I wasn't sure if it is worth worrying about at present, we have far more grass than we need right now. We are understocked and I am keeping as many heifers as possible each year. But the farm was quite run down when I took over.

Why can't some clever scientist improve the nutritional value of buttercups, they grow like crazy here :)

The understocking may be a reason. Are you grazing intensively enough?
 

Ffermer Bach

Member
Livestock Farmer
I have purchased some rubber hose on eBay I was going to run them on the surface I did not realise there are rules against that. The water logistics is my issue it takes longer to fill Bowser than to shift mob and fences
just told yesterday, that overground pipe cant be blue (as the sunlight can get through it and bacteria can grow), apparently we changed from black to blue because of European regulations and you can still buy black pipe via the internet.
 

5312

Member
Location
South Wales
The understocking may be a reason. Are you grazing intensively enough?
It is being grazed enough when it is grazed.

Some of it is being left longer than ideal, the cows will graze outside all winter on grass that hasn't been grazed for 6 months.

The younger stock is rotated on grass about 6 weeks old.

As I said initially, even the lawn is being invaded even though it is being cut short regularly as it always has been.

I know that it would be better to lime the farm and spray off the buttercups but that would be a large expense at present.

The quality of the grasses growing has improved enormously since as Greg Judy predicted, I was hoping I could go without liming as he said he did as well
 
It is being grazed enough when it is grazed.

Some of it is being left longer than ideal, the cows will graze outside all winter on grass that hasn't been grazed for 6 months.

The younger stock is rotated on grass about 6 weeks old.

As I said initially, even the lawn is being invaded even though it is being cut short regularly as it always has been.

I know that it would be better to lime the farm and spray off the buttercups but that would be a large expense at present.

The quality of the grasses growing has improved enormously since as Greg Judy predicted, I was hoping I could go without liming as he said he did as well

Having been to greg judys place i wouldnt take everything as gospel. Take bits of what he does and apply it to you. If you have low ph then lime will pay you bacl
 

ChrisStep

Member
BASE UK Member
just told yesterday, that overground pipe cant be blue (as the sunlight can get through it and bacteria can grow), apparently we changed from black to blue because of European regulations and you can still buy black pipe via the internet.

Black costs about 50% more than blue when I priced it. Surface pipe will get lost in the undergrowth fairly quickly and not let a lot of light through. If you've got water flowing all the time it should stop any bacterial buildup. I think the warmth is the problem for bacteria, not light (use UV to treat water). Light will cause the plastic to degrade and go brittle eventually. Black might slow UV deterioration. Will it last 50% longer?
 

York

Member
Location
D-Berlin
That's interesting, been within two hours of him most my life and never been there.
Where else did you go?
Greg is a very interesting caracter.
Have even got a private gras fed beef burger in his kitchen.
Nicest was when he showed me his tractor :)
went to his farm early August. all pasture in the whole region was brown, surrounding cattle standing in the ponds for cooling & fed on hay. His cattle: nice shiny coats, no flies hovering around & lot's of green gas. Impressive to walk as a stranger through a heard of suckler cows, 3 bulls & some cows fresh delivered. I was never feeling in such a heard so safe as in his. Absolutely convincing, on the spot.
Was a great time with him.
York-Th.
 

martian

DD Moderator
BASE UK Member
Location
N Herts
I have been mob grazing for about 4 years now and the permanent pastures have increased in quality and quantity.

But we are now getting a lot of buttercups in the sward. I do not think that the mob grazing has caused it, they are taking over the lawn as well.

Is it worth doing anything about them? The cattle eat them right down and they must have some nutritional value.

We have not limed or reseeded any fields, i am hoping everything will come right just from the mob grazing as Greg Judy says.
We've had buttercup storms here too, they come and they go and I can't quite work out why they come and why they go, so I'm interested in anyone's theories.
The worst buttercup field last year was a piece that we grazed down a bit hard the previous summer and I put in down to that, ie we'd debilitated the grass and let the buttercups grow without enough competition. We left a good mat of forage after grazing last year (as you say, the cattle will eat them without coming to any obvious harm) and this year there was only a smattering of buttercups in an otherwise grassy sward.
Pleasingly we are seeing more and more clover coming in the old pastures. Where the clover is thick, there doesn't seem to be many buttercups...win/win. Like you, I've decided not to lime or fertilise in any way beyond grazing management and the grass is getting better and better every year. I've also abandoned putting mineral pots out, without anyone noticing. When I did top one of the buckets up, the cattle barely touched the mineral, so they must be getting all they need from the deep rooting forage.
I bumped into Greg Judy last winter at the No-Till on the Plains Conference, what an interesting man. He sounded enthusiastic about talking at Groundswell, I think I'd better sign him up
 

ChrisStep

Member
BASE UK Member
Well I've just taken our cattle off the grass and put them inside after my first year of mob grazing. I had 74 steers starting av 345kg grazing 33 acres of newly seeded, late headed perennial ryegrass. DLWG through the season was 0.7kg, which I would class as disappointing. I did set stock it with ewes and lambs until mid May and cut half of it for silage to try and get on top of the brome grass. We were generally on daily moves of 1/2 acre and back fencing every third day, although when we were short of time we moved them every 3 days into 1.5 acres. North East England.
Things I would do different next time:
Include clover in the seed mix
More nitrogen, especially late season
Possibly more sulphur with it.
Don't use ivomec - very slow breakdown of muck
Let the grass grow longer - cattle fairly loose, especially late season.
Put some pipes in - sick of running about with a bowser, and it's not doing the soil any good.

Any thoughts?
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
Well I've just taken our cattle off the grass and put them inside after my first year of mob grazing. I had 74 steers starting av 345kg grazing 33 acres of newly seeded, late headed perennial ryegrass. DLWG through the season was 0.7kg, which I would class as disappointing. I did set stock it with ewes and lambs until mid May and cut half of it for silage to try and get on top of the brome grass. We were generally on daily moves of 1/2 acre and back fencing every third day, although when we were short of time we moved them every 3 days into 1.5 acres. North East England.
Things I would do different next time:
Include clover in the seed mix
More nitrogen, especially late season
Possibly more sulphur with it.
Don't use ivomec - very slow breakdown of muck
Let the grass grow longer - cattle fairly loose, especially late season.
Put some pipes in - sick of running about with a bowser, and it's not doing the soil any good.

Any thoughts?
Sounds like you've had a good first year!

I think you've answered most of your own questions really.
Definitely, legumes, easiest way I've found is taking out a bucket of all different clovers when they're behind a wire and soil is moist - dust it on the new break and graze.
Animals do the rest.
Will greatly aid the protein level of their feed if plenty of legumes are in the sward.
Sheep are good, is it possible to run the sheep with the cattle?
I've noticed great symbiosis here with the two together, as opposed to separate rounds.
But, test the soil for elemental ratios etc
Won't get into the Albrecht debate :whistle:
And also, if you have seed money, try to set a goal of what your ideal sward looks like.
Aim for a variety of species with a variety of root depths and structures, you will have heard it before, but it's the single biggest driver on our wee place.
You'll find you don't need to make as many excuses, as the rest of the district :cool:
 
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Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
I will sneakily say to ignore Olsen P
My average 'Oh, Pee' level is only 17 and it romps along just fine, don't want to be too controversial of course, but I believe it to be a highjump bar set by P fertiliser salesfolk.
Soil test base saturation needs to be taken with some NaCl imo - it's what's available that is available!
I always sound like a smarty pants sorry, I learn every day!!
 

Farmer Roy

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
NSW, Newstralya
Black costs about 50% more than blue when I priced it. Surface pipe will get lost in the undergrowth fairly quickly and not let a lot of light through. If you've got water flowing all the time it should stop any bacterial buildup. I think the warmth is the problem for bacteria, not light (use UV to treat water). Light will cause the plastic to degrade and go brittle eventually. Black might slow UV deterioration. Will it last 50% longer?

All poly pipe here is black

Obviously we have high UV, but our black poly can last at least 20 yrs or more in the sunlight
 
Having followed this thread for a number of years, as well as other research on the subject, I am thinking of trying some mob grazing this year. Have enjoyed managing some cattle on stubble turnips over winter moving fences twice daily. Have a 150acre block with is mostly HLS flood meadows, have been managed the same way past 25 years. We graze about 20-30 acres from spring and rest is cut for hay mid July then the cattle have the whole block and run it all until too wet to graze this winter they were out until beginning of December. We only normally have 40-50 head on there all year. I would be happy to graze more cattle and get less hay. The ground is heavy clay and most is probably under water at the moment. It is next to a big nature reserve and some fields have a lot of well used footpaths so think these will be better as hay. There are a couple of water tanks in the 14 fields, but I hope I can sort water ok. My questions are how to start in spring. How much growth do you need before you start grazing. This ground has not had any fert for at least 25 years and is species rich but slow to get going. The other question is how many is the ideal mob size, was thinking 50-60 but could go 100+ 6-18 months angusx bluex and simx. Worried if too big mob they might make a mess around water if wet. Any other constructive thoughts welcome.
 

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