ahhh! fairly logical now I know! thanks stuart
Forage wagon - I don't believe the hype
- Thread starter smcapstick
- Start date
ahhh! fairly logical now I know! thanks stuart
R tea
Member
- Location
- Never far from Home
Yes the JD with harvest lab will give all that information, and print it off in the cab at the end of the day.Surely you would have to charge per ton dry matter, else the farmer who picks up at 25% DM will pay 50% more than the farmer who picks up at 50% DM yet your chopper will do just as much chopping
Enterprising farmer will have you picking up haylage and he will be stood on pit with a hosepipe
Your right its not possible to put as much wagon silage into a pit as precision chop , I have customers cutting less acerage now with the wagons as it lasts longer , when I as thinking of changing from the sp to wagons , I raised the question with the salesman that i might have trouble getting as much into the same pits , his answer was that you wont need as much silage as it wont run through the cows , I thought this was just a load of salesman talk but it has turned out to be true , I have one customer who always had to buy in extra silage , since I cut for him with the wagons he hasnt had to buy silage , with the same stock levels and same silage area.
What model of wagon did you use.
benferg
Member
- Location
- North Canterbury, NZ
You lot are funny
Seeing as most of you do your math regarding plant depreciation, maintenance costs etc on machine hours it should always comes down to hours. Any contractor that does it per acre is building in an allowance for the job sucking to keep above the per hour rate they need to achieve. Any farmer that thinks a contractor goes slow doesn't know what it's like to have 20 other farmers barking down the phone asking you when you'll be at their place.
A local contractor was offering a per ton option but IMO its just the same as the per acre gig, they build in a buffer price wise.
Seeing it a lot in NZ now where dairy guys have all grass going over a weigh bridge same as @green giant said for the US. Then at the end you can work out what your silage costs down to the last kg if you want. And farmers are quick to compare costs so if a contractor isn't doing value for money they'll move ship. In NZ, a lot of silage is bought in from off farm as the dairy units have no spare room to grow feed crops etc. All of this is run over a weigh bridge & DM tested (plus ME, protein etc) I guess because we've got this happening is made people be more realistic about how the trading system needs to work to be fair to all.
As for chop length, haven't you lot not tried getting a SPFH guy in running half knives in, it makes a longer chop easy to achieve. The only time I think you'd want to go shorter is when the grass is past its best & it is harder to get good compaction in longer material.
Agree that the presentation of material into a loader wagon is key, that's where tedded and raked grass would probably be a lot better than stuff straight off the mower as it would be more jumbled.
I do wonder about everyone's fuel stats. would like to know what a tractor on a wagon is doing at full noise on a thick row. running the rotor wouldn't be much different than a round baler, but hauling the weight of grass is where the extra fuel will be burnt?
Seeing as most of you do your math regarding plant depreciation, maintenance costs etc on machine hours it should always comes down to hours. Any contractor that does it per acre is building in an allowance for the job sucking to keep above the per hour rate they need to achieve. Any farmer that thinks a contractor goes slow doesn't know what it's like to have 20 other farmers barking down the phone asking you when you'll be at their place.
A local contractor was offering a per ton option but IMO its just the same as the per acre gig, they build in a buffer price wise.
Seeing it a lot in NZ now where dairy guys have all grass going over a weigh bridge same as @green giant said for the US. Then at the end you can work out what your silage costs down to the last kg if you want. And farmers are quick to compare costs so if a contractor isn't doing value for money they'll move ship. In NZ, a lot of silage is bought in from off farm as the dairy units have no spare room to grow feed crops etc. All of this is run over a weigh bridge & DM tested (plus ME, protein etc) I guess because we've got this happening is made people be more realistic about how the trading system needs to work to be fair to all.
As for chop length, haven't you lot not tried getting a SPFH guy in running half knives in, it makes a longer chop easy to achieve. The only time I think you'd want to go shorter is when the grass is past its best & it is harder to get good compaction in longer material.
Agree that the presentation of material into a loader wagon is key, that's where tedded and raked grass would probably be a lot better than stuff straight off the mower as it would be more jumbled.
I do wonder about everyone's fuel stats. would like to know what a tractor on a wagon is doing at full noise on a thick row. running the rotor wouldn't be much different than a round baler, but hauling the weight of grass is where the extra fuel will be burnt?
FonterraFarmer
Member
- Location
- Waikato, New Zealand
You like not sea sick Benferg..
..
benferg
Member
- Location
- North Canterbury, NZ
You like not sea sick Benferg
A little off but that's cos I've been reading the paper. A quality mince pie will fix everything!!!
JD-Kid
Member
- Location
- Akaroa.. New Zealand
agree ben we used to sell silage 2 ways standing and in the pit made
the standing trucks across the scales then DM test a few weeks later once pit evened out payed on cents per kg dm standing
i mowed so got payed per hour all other stuff on per hour unless baleing then per bale
pit silage sold on test DM price per Kg dm out of pit i loaded trucks most of the time so per hour loading trucks on per hour and all loads across the scales we got a copy of weights and billed the farmers
know guys that used to do a longer chop with sp's in fact all the grass and alfalfa was longer chop short chop mazie and WC
as for rakeing if you take a twin roto rake out of a mower a twin roto will put a lot of grass at 90 degrees to the knifes be it wagon or baler a V rake will make it feed in line so longer cut or not cut at all
same deal can happen with a chopper if hitting the knifes across the chop length goes to hell Vs hitting the knifes at 90 degree think of mazie it hits chopper knifes the right way same with most WC if direct cut or in windrows baler on the same windrows makes an arse of a job
yep i can recall working for contractors doing midnight parts runs to get going again and told my arse is getting chewed so don't worry about speeding tickets i'll pay ..there were a few quick trips to get spairs HAHAHA
thats why i could not work out the sheeting of pits alot of guys here i have seen the chopper finsh the last bit of a row and be in top clog down the road folding the shute down rake man had gone 1/2 an hour before one truck already had the fuel tanker on
loader driver flat out finshing off the pit seen the odd case of a spair driver rolling the pit as well
if the pit is to be covered the contractor will have a few lads turn up and do it but not the main guys eazer to pay some guys to turn up in a ute with a roll of plastic and keep all the toys at full steam
i wonder if it's the size of the wagon load as well makeing it harder on the pit i know years ago contractor with a SP at home the loader was playing up on the pit so i rolled as well 2-3 truck loads took a lot of spread out and hard to work with once loader going right he could spread out a single load eazy .. don't know any thing about the wagons but the big ones would hold a hell of a lot of grass to move at the pit and unless dumped across the face it's lot of dead weight to move in one hit
the standing trucks across the scales then DM test a few weeks later once pit evened out payed on cents per kg dm standing
i mowed so got payed per hour all other stuff on per hour unless baleing then per bale
pit silage sold on test DM price per Kg dm out of pit i loaded trucks most of the time so per hour loading trucks on per hour and all loads across the scales we got a copy of weights and billed the farmers
know guys that used to do a longer chop with sp's in fact all the grass and alfalfa was longer chop short chop mazie and WC
as for rakeing if you take a twin roto rake out of a mower a twin roto will put a lot of grass at 90 degrees to the knifes be it wagon or baler a V rake will make it feed in line so longer cut or not cut at all
same deal can happen with a chopper if hitting the knifes across the chop length goes to hell Vs hitting the knifes at 90 degree think of mazie it hits chopper knifes the right way same with most WC if direct cut or in windrows baler on the same windrows makes an arse of a job
yep i can recall working for contractors doing midnight parts runs to get going again and told my arse is getting chewed so don't worry about speeding tickets i'll pay ..there were a few quick trips to get spairs HAHAHA
thats why i could not work out the sheeting of pits alot of guys here i have seen the chopper finsh the last bit of a row and be in top clog down the road folding the shute down rake man had gone 1/2 an hour before one truck already had the fuel tanker on
loader driver flat out finshing off the pit seen the odd case of a spair driver rolling the pit as well
if the pit is to be covered the contractor will have a few lads turn up and do it but not the main guys eazer to pay some guys to turn up in a ute with a roll of plastic and keep all the toys at full steam
i wonder if it's the size of the wagon load as well makeing it harder on the pit i know years ago contractor with a SP at home the loader was playing up on the pit so i rolled as well 2-3 truck loads took a lot of spread out and hard to work with once loader going right he could spread out a single load eazy .. don't know any thing about the wagons but the big ones would hold a hell of a lot of grass to move at the pit and unless dumped across the face it's lot of dead weight to move in one hit
FonterraFarmer
Member
- Location
- Waikato, New Zealand
Mince and cheese pie
Hilly
Member
- Location
- Scottish Borders.
Speedstar
Member
- Location
- Scottish Borders
JD-Kid
Member
- Location
- Akaroa.. New Zealand
ummmm 40's quite dry for silage and a few pic's i have seen the tires wet i would question it being that dry
15 i agree tho too wet like green soup sure ton's in the pit wet but yer have to feed alot out
benferg
Member
- Location
- North Canterbury, NZ
Since we went to dropping in single rows again and then taking up we are normally making silage at 36 to 40% and it's good quality. Key is drying it as fast as possible IMO.
Definitely get better fuel consumption when chopping drier. Can drop from 45 litres per hour to 35 od
JD-Kid
Member
- Location
- Akaroa.. New Zealand
eazy to get to 40% here and you would be chopping in the full sun
From reading a lot of this thread its clear that a lot of wagons are being used with either blunt knives or are older machines with not enough knives in them , Ive being asked to take out knives as the farmer wanted the chop lenght longer than we were cutting it , there is very little differance in chop lenght between a JD sp running a half set of knives and our wagons with sharp knives at 35mm spacings, we are picking up 80/100 ac / day and the loader driver has no problem on the pit handling it , the silage preserves perfectly with no waste , the customers are happy and are getting what they want . On the other hand wagon silage badly chopped is a disaster to handle , hard to pack and will have waste at feeding out time , its like every job , when done right it is a top job , put the same machine in the wrong mans hands and he will make a f.ck of it . But to generalise wagon silage as being too hard to handle is just pure crap .
buckrake men expect wagon silage to be the same to handle as precision chop, in my experience, wagon silage is best carried up the pit rather than shoved up it. Perhaps its easier with a load shovel or loadall where you can get more clearance than a tractor mounted buckrake? we've never had any bother with the transition to wagon silage, no compaction issue's and every silage addative rep that's been in our yard has been really impressed with our silage. We've been running our own wagon for 3 years, and won't be rushing back to precision chop in a hurry.
Why wont you be going back to precision chop , what advantaged are you finding with the wagon silage.
We used to run our own tired old claas 682, which on occasion would let us down to the point of getting a contractor to finish off. we always felt the grass came in to fast to get a 'proper rolling' when the contractor came. We also found that staff with tractors & trailers were getting harder to find, and cost a more each year. The fuel is a major factor. I use more fuel to run a 11'6 mower, (no conditioner) than I do to chop and haul with the wagon, I dred to think how much more I'd used on a smaller mower with a conditioner.
Its hard to explain how or why, and I know people keep saying it, but we now seem to have a lot calmer relaxed silage times. I'll chop, dad will buckrake and another lad will switch between rowing up and rolling the clamp as and when I'm catching the rake. we're lucky enough to have a farm that suits a wagon, with our longest lead been a 20 min round trip for 25 acre.
Even mum's commented that we're saving money buy not having an army of staff to feed at meal times
I can't comment for the 1 cut guys, we're after quality for our dairy cows so will get 3 or 4 cuts a year. but I can usually sit at 11 or 12kmph on level going with a decent sized row......been up to 18kmph on light stuff, downhill with the wind behind!!
Cow milk production, if anything has lifted on wagon silage, BF didn't lift like I expected it to, but the yields they are giving you cant have it both ways.
I'm not a wagon obsessed maniac, and can see how they aren't for everyone, but it works for us, and will do for others....if used correctly. I turn our blades every 50-60 ac, but I know some guys who only sharpen them once a season......not that far from the OP's location.
Its hard to explain how or why, and I know people keep saying it, but we now seem to have a lot calmer relaxed silage times. I'll chop, dad will buckrake and another lad will switch between rowing up and rolling the clamp as and when I'm catching the rake. we're lucky enough to have a farm that suits a wagon, with our longest lead been a 20 min round trip for 25 acre.
Even mum's commented that we're saving money buy not having an army of staff to feed at meal times
I can't comment for the 1 cut guys, we're after quality for our dairy cows so will get 3 or 4 cuts a year. but I can usually sit at 11 or 12kmph on level going with a decent sized row......been up to 18kmph on light stuff, downhill with the wind behind!!
Cow milk production, if anything has lifted on wagon silage, BF didn't lift like I expected it to, but the yields they are giving you cant have it both ways.
I'm not a wagon obsessed maniac, and can see how they aren't for everyone, but it works for us, and will do for others....if used correctly. I turn our blades every 50-60 ac, but I know some guys who only sharpen them once a season......not that far from the OP's location.
fermerboy
Member
- Location
- Banffshire
My father in law has a realitively small farm only making 35-40 ac of silage a year.
He had previously used a contractor with a trailed Jaguar chopper and 3 trailers to cart due to the awkward trip.
Due to manpower issue getting 3 trailer drivers and a buckrake driver gathered up he decided to try the wagon route.
Mowing was the same, contractor raked and pulled silage to the pit with a Pottinger wagon, which was pushed in and rolled with a TM 140 and a 100hp rolling all the time.
We found the chop length to be on the long side and there was more waste on top and the top 1m wasn't so good.
Second year we wilted less as it was felt that would help the compaction at the pit, but although better it wasn't as good as we would have liked.
So now it's chopped with a trailed JF and the pit is better again.
Yes more weight on the pit would help but realistically 140hp and 100hp sized tractors on the pit should be enough. Most round here need the 140 in the field.
Possibly the wagon blades were wrong/blunt.
Definitely much easier to organise, one phone call and it happened.
As for fuel ignoring mowing as it's the same for both there was a saving over chopper and 3 tractors carting, can't remember the figures but not so much as some on here are suggesting. The protracted carting run probably meant that the saving in fuel wasn't so good for us.
I was disappointed really as I like the idea and simplicity of the wagon system.
He had previously used a contractor with a trailed Jaguar chopper and 3 trailers to cart due to the awkward trip.
Due to manpower issue getting 3 trailer drivers and a buckrake driver gathered up he decided to try the wagon route.
Mowing was the same, contractor raked and pulled silage to the pit with a Pottinger wagon, which was pushed in and rolled with a TM 140 and a 100hp rolling all the time.
We found the chop length to be on the long side and there was more waste on top and the top 1m wasn't so good.
Second year we wilted less as it was felt that would help the compaction at the pit, but although better it wasn't as good as we would have liked.
So now it's chopped with a trailed JF and the pit is better again.
Yes more weight on the pit would help but realistically 140hp and 100hp sized tractors on the pit should be enough. Most round here need the 140 in the field.
Possibly the wagon blades were wrong/blunt.
Definitely much easier to organise, one phone call and it happened.
As for fuel ignoring mowing as it's the same for both there was a saving over chopper and 3 tractors carting, can't remember the figures but not so much as some on here are suggesting. The protracted carting run probably meant that the saving in fuel wasn't so good for us.
I was disappointed really as I like the idea and simplicity of the wagon system.