Regenerative Agriculture

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
Interesting. Did you outwintering on beet and if so , how wet did it get and how did you go about establishing the ley afterwards? It's something I've thought about doing on some really gravelly land we have, but a bit worried it would end up poached to death.
Hi Dan, this paddock was originally planned to have the beet harvested by the vendor of the property but..... plans didn't work for him, couldn't get the beet lifted due to a penchant for not settling accounts, bought a root bucket and auger bucket, which didn't work out either, and then a health scare meant he had another guy run the farm over winter - the stock would spend a day on the beet and then a day inside eating silage while the other mob had a day on the beet.
Cumbersome and VERY destructive, the soil structure in here when we took over was like Colby. :(
After the beet, it was wholecrop triticale undersown with 6 different clovers and a hybrid ryegrass (the peas were all eaten by pigeons, was meant to be a pea/triticale wholecrop) - unfortunately the end result was quite an open pasture with bare patches, which has allowed quite a few thistles to grow.
The clovers, especially the reds and the arrowleaf have really turned it around, as far as structure goes, 18 months ago you couldn't get a spade in to full depth and now it is softer through the profile.
Deep compaction is still there, but continued mob-stocking will help I'm sure.
Biodiversity is crucial - it's no accident that weedy beet crops don't harm the soil the way clean crops do, and this is true in the successive crops I think.
Personally I would grow something like daikon radish after the beet just to do the hard yards, with relieving the worst of the compaction, although gravelly substrates usually handle beet outwintering well.
The main thing is to do all you can to encourage the soil biology, use backfencing and even throw seed on behind the back fence - growing weeds is preferable to growing nowt.

That's my thoughts on it, anyway, most of the destruction of outwintering cattle isn't the poaching necessarily, but the 3 months of sitting there afterwards with nothing growing and in an anaerobic state :(

After seeing how my pea experiment worked, I'd be keen to sprinkle cereals or something on in front of the cattle and let them punch it in if the seed was cheap enough :)
All totally unendorsed by the experts of course!! :LOL:

We would struggle to get a good of rainfall in a month of winter here, but cows still make a mess if you let them.
An extra fence behind them is so beneficial, in wet conditions the less time you have them ploughing the better.
Better to just wreck a strip of paddock than three quarters of it.

Soils here are red clay and quite heavy - cultivation is to be avoided as much as possible.
 

Farmer Roy

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
NSW, Newstralya
IMG_4688.JPG
 

Dan Powell

Member
Location
Shropshire
Hi Dan, this paddock was originally planned to have the beet harvested by the vendor of the property but..... plans didn't work for him, couldn't get the beet lifted due to a penchant for not settling accounts, bought a root bucket and auger bucket, which didn't work out either, and then a health scare meant he had another guy run the farm over winter - the stock would spend a day on the beet and then a day inside eating silage while the other mob had a day on the beet.
Cumbersome and VERY destructive, the soil structure in here when we took over was like Colby. :(
After the beet, it was wholecrop triticale undersown with 6 different clovers and a hybrid ryegrass (the peas were all eaten by pigeons, was meant to be a pea/triticale wholecrop) - unfortunately the end result was quite an open pasture with bare patches, which has allowed quite a few thistles to grow.
The clovers, especially the reds and the arrowleaf have really turned it around, as far as structure goes, 18 months ago you couldn't get a spade in to full depth and now it is softer through the profile.
Deep compaction is still there, but continued mob-stocking will help I'm sure.
Biodiversity is crucial - it's no accident that weedy beet crops don't harm the soil the way clean crops do, and this is true in the successive crops I think.
Personally I would grow something like daikon radish after the beet just to do the hard yards, with relieving the worst of the compaction, although gravelly substrates usually handle beet outwintering well.
The main thing is to do all you can to encourage the soil biology, use backfencing and even throw seed on behind the back fence - growing weeds is preferable to growing nowt.

That's my thoughts on it, anyway, most of the destruction of outwintering cattle isn't the poaching necessarily, but the 3 months of sitting there afterwards with nothing growing and in an anaerobic state :(

After seeing how my pea experiment worked, I'd be keen to sprinkle cereals or something on in front of the cattle and let them punch it in if the seed was cheap enough :)
All totally unendorsed by the experts of course!! :LOL:

We would struggle to get a good of rainfall in a month of winter here, but cows still make a mess if you let them.
An extra fence behind them is so beneficial, in wet conditions the less time you have them ploughing the better.
Better to just wreck a strip of paddock than three quarters of it.

Soils here are red clay and quite heavy - cultivation is to be avoided as much as possible.
Thanks for the pointers. It would be nice to shorten the winter housing period here as much as possible and be able to increase cattle numbers without more sheds. Better grazing management should help at the shoulders of the year but there are wet times when I will want to avoid ruining my grassland. Not sure of the right way to go yet.
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
Thanks for the pointers. It would be nice to shorten the winter housing period here as much as possible and be able to increase cattle numbers without more sheds. Better grazing management should help at the shoulders of the year but there are wet times when I will want to avoid ruining my grassland. Not sure of the right way to go yet.
Definitely a great idea, we have a small tunnel here for wintering cattle and, even though it's all on the cheap, they don't run for free!
So a bit of both is a good idea, in my opinion.
All the best for the new year!
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
Yep. Happy New Year! Roll on spring... Pity we can't stick all these animals on a boat to NZ come winter and have them back in the spring...
A lot to be said for migration, if you get it right (y)
We had a large (90 acre) paddock that was really rocky, to the point you wouldn't sink an implement in, which was always "the cattle paddock" on our family farm - have often considered how many tons of hay had gone over there in 50 years to help make "soil" but it would be lots!
 

martian

DD Moderator
BASE UK Member
Location
N Herts
Thanks for the pointers. It would be nice to shorten the winter housing period here as much as possible and be able to increase cattle numbers without more sheds. Better grazing management should help at the shoulders of the year but there are wet times when I will want to avoid ruining my grassland. Not sure of the right way to go yet.
It's very wet here now, but we've still got 100 cows out and they look very well...only made a mess when we had the snow and I rolled a few bales of hay out, ground wasn't frozen underneath unfortunately. They are slowly making their way back to their corral, but shaving the shoulders off the winter has been a real bonus. Time will tell if we've done any damage, moving them daily with back fencing.
 

holwellcourtfarm

Member
Livestock Farmer
Thanks for the pointers. It would be nice to shorten the winter housing period here as much as possible and be able to increase cattle numbers without more sheds. Better grazing management should help at the shoulders of the year but there are wet times when I will want to avoid ruining my grassland. Not sure of the right way to go yet.
Many years ago we used to outwinter on old pastures at Hertford, on clay. They often made a right mess. The grass came back quite well but it cost us 3 to 4 weeks on turnout.

I might consider doing it again in future in strips with back fences so they make less mess, even if it's only for half the winter.
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
Many years ago we used to outwinter on old pastures at Hertford, on clay. They often made a right mess. The grass came back quite well but it cost us 3 to 4 weeks on turnout.

I might consider doing it again in future in strips with back fences so they make less mess, even if it's only for half the winter.
If done right, it can make such a difference to spring growth (as the opposite is true, if you go too far)
That's the main reason I have a big mob of lambs and not several smaller ones over winter here - much easier to get them treading the right amount of grass in that way, and I'm too lazy for daily sheep fences! :oops::rolleyes:
The goal this winter is to be on about a 6 week grazing round- last winter was 4.5 weeks or so, but this year we'll have some forage crops in the round to help.
One hectare per day with about 600 lambs on, or about 55 hours per average paddock here (since you have 'local knowledge' :cool:)

Hopefully they'll do the job of cleaning the paddocks right out before they get fat, and I'll have my little spinner on the back to get some grass and clover seeds spun out too. (y)

I'm going to spit out Perun (a festulolium), red clover, plantain and chicory at the end of winter and use the lambs to push it into the turf, 'direct drilling' but not as we know it. :confused:
Hopefully it will coincide with a nice mild spring :wacky::bag:
 

hendrebc

Member
Livestock Farmer
If done right, it can make such a difference to spring growth (as the opposite is true, if you go too far)
That's the main reason I have a big mob of lambs and not several smaller ones over winter here - much easier to get them treading the right amount of grass in that way, and I'm too lazy for daily sheep fences! :oops::rolleyes:
The goal this winter is to be on about a 6 week grazing round- last winter was 4.5 weeks or so, but this year we'll have some forage crops in the round to help.
One hectare per day with about 600 lambs on, or about 55 hours per average paddock here (since you have 'local knowledge' :cool:)

Hopefully they'll do the job of cleaning the paddocks right out before they get fat, and I'll have my little spinner on the back to get some grass and clover seeds spun out too. (y)

I'm going to spit out Perun (a festulolium), red clover, plantain and chicory at the end of winter and use the lambs to push it into the turf, 'direct drilling' but not as we know it. :confused:
Hopefully it will coincide with a nice mild spring :wacky::bag:
Ive read about people spinning seeds and treading them down in spring just before a frost and then the seeds go dormant waiting for some warmth them everything grows all together then. This was in America were they get good reliable cold weather but might work other places if you get any frost? Ive tried throwing some clover seeds in with the spring fertilizer but its not very reliable too much competition from the existing grasses then. Going to try put some through the cattle this year put some seeds in their minerals. Meant to work well that way ill find out in about 6 months :cool:
 

Farmer Roy

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
NSW, Newstralya
in northern Australia, stylo ( tropical legume ) is often spread on the large cattle stations by incorporating the seed with a mineral lick or grain feeding

I know people here with rotational / mob grazing who will put cattle on plants that are seeding then move them to another area they want to establish so they can sh!t the seed everywhere
 

hendrebc

Member
Livestock Farmer
in northern Australia, stylo ( tropical legume ) is often spread on the large cattle stations by incorporating the seed with a mineral lick or grain feeding

I know people here with rotational / mob grazing who will put cattle on plants that are seeding then move them to another area they want to establish so they can sh!t the seed everywhere
I think this is what ive read about that made me think about it working here. Ive asked around a few people but no one was very optimistic of it working :rolleyes: its not a metal thing dragged by a diesel burner it will never work :rolleyes::banghead:
Ive done that with headed clovers and it works well with cattle not quite so well with sheep.
Thanks Roy that is very encouraging to hear (y) i was sure it was a real thing that people did and i didnt just make it up :confused::confused:
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
That is the goal with my red/arrowleaf/balansa clover paddocks, for what it's worth: two lighter grazings (the red especially becomes quite unpalatable in the leadup to flowering) and then a heavy grazing, shifting the stock to paddocks with only white clover, to help introduce it elsewhere.
Bugger tractors, good things when you need them, but I'd rather use my head every day than my tractor.
Cheaper to run a small brain IME
 

hendrebc

Member
Livestock Farmer
That is the goal with my red/arrowleaf/balansa clover paddocks, for what it's worth: two lighter grazings (the red especially becomes quite unpalatable in the leadup to flowering) and then a heavy grazing, shifting the stock to paddocks with only white clover, to help introduce it elsewhere.
Bugger tractors, good things when you need them, but I'd rather use my head every day than my tractor.
Cheaper to run a small brain IME
Have you tried balsana in a premenant pasture ley like white clover would he used? It sounds like a great plant especially if it will work like that. Id throw some on that soaking wet turnip field i showed you.
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
My thoughs exactly. I already have cattle and they already have minerals out for them will only cost me some seed. Once i have one or two field (sorry paddock ;)) done i should he away then (y)
I'll grab you a picture tomorrow of how much plantain and RC I've shifted via livestock, if I get home before they've scoffed it!
Sarah is shifting them at 9:30 and I won't be home til 4:30, but it works very well in some cases.
Obviously some areas suit some species better, the "worse" bits are full of plantain and red clovers this year, being dry as a chip has really accentuated the dry capabilities of both.
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
Have you tried balsana in a premenant pasture ley like white clover would he used? It sounds like a great plant especially if it will work like that. Id throw some on that soaking wet turnip field i showed you.
Yes but it was only a couple of kg/ha in a mix- it's everywhere early on and now it's that full of clovers that it's difficult to spot which is who.
I'm going to put about 4kg in my ex-pea paddock though, 4kg of reds, and a kilo each of white, arrowleaf and alsike.
Plus plantain, chicory, peas and barley, and some sunflower if I can get seed in time...

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