Cumbria farmhouse heating options

Solarfarmer · Feb 13, 2018

We've just had a 45kw GSHP put in to our 400yr old Farmhouse. It works well but the radiators we've had to have are massive/ 2 needed per room.
The flow temp in the rads is variable depending on the outside temp, but it gets up to about 50C (too hot to touch) and the domestic hot water is anywhere from 50-65C without immersion assistance.
Were in the process of trying to stop the draughts so we can actually keep the heat in! Also looking at putting some underfloor heating in.

I wouldn't bother with the log burner & back boiler in a large & inefficient house. We got rid of that system to put the GSHP in. We were using a dumpy bag of logs every 4 days in mid winter.

renewablejohn · Feb 13, 2018

Solarfarmer said:
We've just had a 45kw GSHP put in to our 400yr old Farmhouse. It works well but the radiators we've had to have are massive/ 2 needed per room.
The flow temp in the rads is variable depending on the outside temp, but it gets up to about 50C (too hot to touch) and the domestic hot water is anywhere from 50-65C without immersion assistance.
Were in the process of trying to stop the draughts so we can actually keep the heat in! Also looking at putting some underfloor heating in.

I wouldn't bother with the log burner & back boiler in a large & inefficient house. We got rid of that system to put the GSHP in. We were using a dumpy bag of logs every 4 days in mid winter.

A large house does not have to be inefficient hence the reason why I could reduce my boiler size down from 60kw to 20kw as the insulation and efficiency increased. By your comments on the size of radiators it sounds like you needed to sort out the insulation and draught proofing prior to speccing the GSHP.

Ffermer Bach · Feb 13, 2018

I believe heat pumps work at a lower temperature than oil or gas boilers, hence if radiators are used, they need to be larger than rads with an oil boiler, I think heat pumps are really better with underfloor heating, also micro bore should not be used with GSHPs.

e3120 · Feb 13, 2018

renewablejohn said:
A large house does not have to be inefficient hence the reason why I could reduce my boiler size down from 60kw to 20kw as the insulation and efficiency increased. By your comments on the size of radiators it sounds like you needed to sort out the insulation and draught proofing prior to speccing the GSHP.

John, you're 100% right, but us mortals find it difficult. I had a bedroom/bathroom refurbed a couple of years ago and had the builder put 50mm kingspan in at the time. No doubt I was naive/builders sloppy, but I've been disappointed. That's a major reason why I'm very nervous about GSHP into my old property, the rest of which has had glazing/loft insulation done but still only barely adequately warm using oil.

renewablejohn · Feb 13, 2018

e3120 said:
John, you're 100% right, but us mortals find it difficult. I had a bedroom/bathroom refurbed a couple of years ago and had the builder put 50mm kingspan in at the time. No doubt I was naive/builders sloppy, but I've been disappointed. That's a major reason why I'm very nervous about GSHP into my old property, the rest of which has had glazing/loft insulation done but still only barely adequately warm using oil.

I bet you installed down lights or light sockets through the ceiling for all your lovely heat to escape through. I think all uk builders need to do a minimum 6 months in a Nordic country to see how insulation should be installed and sealed. Did your builder seal the kingspan if not you will have wasted your money.
How much loft insulation do you have and do you have any light fittings through the ceiling. I presume being an old building your plaster is sealed at the edges if it has been replaced with plasterboard then make sure the edges are sealed.

phillipe · Feb 13, 2018

renewablejohn said:
I bet you installed down lights or light sockets through the ceiling for all your lovely heat to escape through. I think all uk builders need to do a minimum 6 months in a Nordic country to see how insulation should be installed and sealed. Did your builder seal the kingspan if not you will have wasted your money.
How much loft insulation do you have and do you have any light fittings through the ceiling. I presume being an old building your plaster is sealed at the edges if it has been replaced with plasterboard then make sure the edges are sealed.

Dont tar us all with the same brush thank you,as i try yo seal the insulation on all builds

akaPABLO01 · Feb 13, 2018

e3120 said:
John, you're 100% right, but us mortals find it difficult. I had a bedroom/bathroom refurbed a couple of years ago and had the builder put 50mm kingspan in at the time. No doubt I was naive/builders sloppy, but I've been disappointed. That's a major reason why I'm very nervous about GSHP into my old property, the rest of which has had glazing/loft insulation done but still only barely adequately warm using oil.

That’s because oil boilers are between 60/70% efficiency. Sling the oil boiler and install district heating gshp. You’ll be glad you did.

suffolksmallholder · Feb 13, 2018

Billiedog18 said:
Hi
We've just bought an old farmhouse near Kirkby Stephen, Cumbria. We are looking at heating options, specifically, log burners with back boilers, thermal store, underfloor heating and possibly a ground source heat pump. Has anyone had any first hand experience of such in this area before we spend an awful lot of money?!! Ie. Do ground source heat pumps work in old farmhouses in Cumbria?
Many thanks

NO.
You have to spend money on insulation, insulation & insulation else it's money down the drain.
If you do go with GSH think 55 degrees as a maximum achievable temperature then go from there with other sources. ie pellet, gas or oil. But I refer back to the above sentence.
Solat hot water brings sunshine into your water store from March 'till October.
PV is too complicated for me to comment on at present.
Underfloor wet & underfloor electric are all good systems if you can zone the house into divisions of summer & winter living.
Chip is great if you are an engineer, can dry on site & have lots of undesirables dropping chips in your yard. Do-able in the home counties but probably not so in Cumbria.
SS

suffolksmallholder · Feb 13, 2018

@renewablejohn. Cold drafts come through modern door key-holes, down wire conduit & in through the extractor fan in the kitchen so I'm very aware.
Multi layered insulation also helps with sealing but this is where the care is needed. Plus creating cold bridges in materials one never considered before!
One other thought is if this is going to be your 'forever home' as this will make ease of maintenance in say 20 or 30 years time an important choice. As technology changes you don't want major upheaval to your buildings services or be physically unable to fill your boiler due to old age.
SS

renewablejohn · Feb 13, 2018

skinnyhoskins said:
Dont tar us all with the same brush thank you,as i try yo seal the insulation on all builds

Not tarring everyone with the same brush just trying to find an explanation for e3120 as to why his building works has not come upto his expectations.

renewablejohn · Feb 13, 2018

suffolksmallholder said:
@renewablejohn. Cold drafts come through modern door key-holes, down wire conduit & in through the extractor fan in the kitchen so I'm very aware.
Multi layered insulation also helps with sealing but this is where the care is needed. Plus creating cold bridges in materials one never considered before!
One other thought is if this is going to be your 'forever home' as this will make ease of maintenance in say 20 or 30 years time an important choice. As technology changes you don't want major upheaval to your buildings services or be physically unable to fill your boiler due to old age.
SS

No drafts through my keyholes as the doors are Swedish design external opening. Only draft should be controlled by the MVHR system. I am trying to future proof the heating system with the installation of the UFH which we have Listed building consent for. In addition to the wet system I am also incorporating electric ufh. I have permission to build a 25mtr by 15mtr agri building with 30kw of PV and a stream capable of producing 5kw.

e3120 · Feb 13, 2018

akaPABLO01 said:
That’s because oil boilers are between 60/70% efficiency. Sling the oil boiler and install district heating gshp. You’ll be glad you did.

I'd like to. But surely the oil efficiency is irrelevant (lets assume I'm loaded) to my room temperatures. If my current radiator and insulation stock only delivers adequate heat at boiler flow temps, one/other/both will need improvements for the lower temps of a GSH system.

e3120 · Feb 13, 2018

renewablejohn said:
I bet you installed down lights or light sockets through the ceiling for all your lovely heat to escape through. I think all uk builders need to do a minimum 6 months in a Nordic country to see how insulation should be installed and sealed. Did your builder seal the kingspan if not you will have wasted your money.
How much loft insulation do you have and do you have any light fittings through the ceiling. I presume being an old building your plaster is sealed at the edges if it has been replaced with plasterboard then make sure the edges are sealed.

Thanks John. There's 300mm in the loft, put in off the back of ECO scheme. Downlighters in the bathroom and insulation installers insisted they cut the insulation above them in case someone fitted halagons (I have LEDs) due to fire risk. Single pendant in the bedroom so OK there.

There was a sheet of thin plastic fitted over the kingspan (very like the O2 barrier film I put on the clamp). Is this sealing or only for damp? Yes, plasterboard, but not quite sure which edges you mean should have been sealed. On a windy night I do feel I'm sleeping in the proverbial plasterboard tent!

akaPABLO01 · Feb 13, 2018

e3120 said:
I'd like to. But surely the oil efficiency is irrelevant (lets assume I'm loaded) to my room temperatures. If my current radiator and insulation stock only delivers adequate heat at boiler flow temps, one/other/both will need improvements for the lower temps of a GSH system.

Efficiency means you pay for fuel, it’s is then transferred into heat. You’re losing 30% in transfer compared to modern gas boilers or heat pumps.

This lower temp thingy, I’m not sure where this comes from, boil a kettle to 40 degrees and stick your hand in it. That’s not low temperature. The heat is ample for warming homes and if you can hold a radiator on a heat pump then it’s undersized or the pump isn’t big enough to circulate.

You’ll be surprised at the heat emitted.

Farmerdunk · Feb 13, 2018

Billiedog18 said:
Hi
We've just bought an old farmhouse near Kirkby Stephen, Cumbria. We are looking at heating options, specifically, log burners with back boilers, thermal store, underfloor heating and possibly a ground source heat pump. Has anyone had any first hand experience of such in this area before we spend an awful lot of money?!! Ie. Do ground source heat pumps work in old farmhouses in Cumbria?
Many thanks

Hi I'm staying in an old cottage in Cumbria this week. The owner next door just happens to be a builder who does air/ground source heat pumps!
Could send his details by pm?

renewablejohn · Feb 13, 2018

e3120 said:
Thanks John. There's 300mm in the loft, put in off the back of ECO scheme. Downlighters in the bathroom and insulation installers insisted they cut the insulation above them in case someone fitted halagons (I have LEDs) due to fire risk. Single pendant in the bedroom so OK there.

There was a sheet of thin plastic fitted over the kingspan (very like the O2 barrier film I put on the clamp). Is this sealing or only for damp? Yes, plasterboard, but not quite sure which edges you mean should have been sealed. On a windy night I do feel I'm sleeping in the proverbial plasterboard tent!

I am not surprised you have been shafted by your builder but I bet its through ignorance by your builder not knowing how to keep the fabric of your building warm which is especially important on old buildings. You have wasted your money as your kingspan will be doing nothing to help insulation due to all the holes cut through it.
As an example we have no electrics or holes cut in the ceilings. All lights are wall lights or uplighters. Insulation 200mm between ceiling joists than further 200mm 90 degree to ceiling joists. Then boarded with a further 200mm between the rafters.

phillipe · Feb 13, 2018

renewablejohn said:
I am not surprised you have been shafted by your builder but I bet its through ignorance by your builder not knowing how to keep the fabric of your building warm which is especially important on old buildings. You have wasted your money as your kingspan will be doing nothing to help insulation due to all the holes cut through it.
As an example we have no electrics or holes cut in the ceilings. All lights are wall lights or uplighters. Insulation 200mm between ceiling joists than further 200mm 90 degree to ceiling joists. Then boarded with a further 200mm between the rafters.

So 600mm in total ?

renewablejohn · Feb 13, 2018

skinnyhoskins said:
So 600mm in total ?

Slightly more with the flooring which is tongue and groove.

phillipe · Feb 13, 2018

renewablejohn said:
Slightly more with the flooring which is tongue and groove.

And there was me thinking that anything over 350mm was pointless ?

phillipe · Feb 13, 2018

renewablejohn said:
Slightly more with the flooring which is tongue and groove.

I say this because when i went to the kingspan factory this very question was asked ,and the man at the factory said that 250mm properly fitted would be sufficient ,any more would be a waste ?

Cumbria farmhouse heating options

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