A question for Brexit hating Guardian readers or any other Remainers

DrWazzock

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lincolnshire
No response then? (In fact, not sure what you mean by that, please explain :scratchhead:)

Pot, kettle, black...

Before the Referendum I made it clear that if the result was not what I wanted I would respect it. Many Remainers said the same, most have kept their word.

Out of interest what do you, + @DrWazzock for that matter, think would happen if we were to have a change of mind and, say, in a 3rd referendum 51.5% voted to remain in / re-join the EU?

The whole thing would be cancelled and we could get back on with business as usual.

Do you think the UK as a sovereign entity would still be so in twenty years? Are you happy at the thought of an unaccountable EU Army? Would you be pleased to see the 'ever closer union' completed? Do you like the idea of never being able to leave, without permission? Bearing in mind the utter failure of the EC to change or concede on any matter regarding its ever-extending reach, will you be happy to see the end of nation states?

Sovereign entity? I live in Lincolnshire. I don't really have much to do with London. Does it really matter if London or Brussels sets the rules? They are both equally distant and equally incompetent and equally unaccountable from where I'm standing.

An EU army wouldn't be unaccountable but it might have enough clout to deter Putin. EU member states squabbling amongst themselves is a gift to Putin.

I wouldn't shed any tears over the end of nation states. It might be the solution, not the problem. I have some German visitors here at the moment. We have shared values, shared interests, shared cultural I
heritage. I really don't see the need to emphasise the fact I am British. My visitors have travelled freely here, can live and work freely here. But you want to go back to treating them as untrustworthy Johnny Foreigner. It's absurd, ridiculous and insulting to them,y

Perhaps you will be, some are and although I think it a pretty awful thing, they are entitled to hold that opinion and full credit to them if they are honest enough to admit it. If you like these ideas please admit as much; if you don't like them and / or think them likely to happen, what absolute guarantees can you give us Eurosceptics that these things will not happen, or are you advocating a leap into the great unknown?

Answer:

It's hardly a leap into the unknown, is it, to retain the progress we have made so far? But you want to wind the clock back 40 years. I'll bet you have doubts and reservations underneath your bluster. You are just afraid to change your mind. Meet and live with Europeans, don't just make assumptions and generalisations. I worked and lived in the continent. We work well together. We learn from each other. It's not all to our liking and some of it seems strange and there is a certain amount of banditry there, but really you want to swap a great Union for non existent mirage of olde England that never really did exist.

I'm convinced. And I'm not an idiot, not insane, not depressed. Rational and reasonable, pragmatic and cautious.


Responses please.

The responses are in there mostly in red.
 

Muck Spreader

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Limousin
The Franco German political alliance will either work or it won't.

Where has it gone wrong ? What about all the jobs & people's lives destroyed because of numbers on bits of paper ?

It's no mistake that London is rich and the regions are poor.

The UK has been highly instrumental in shaping the EU, we are not there just for the ride. If we don't like what it's become we had better look to ourselves, rather then winging that the Germans and French are too good at negotiating the results they want.
 

jendan

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Northumberland
Did Blair win after the dodgy dossier was outed ? Shame on us if we voted that scumbag in.
The free vote in the Commons has been written in here before.Nearly all Tories voted for it,many Labour voted against or abstained,and of course all Lib Dems voted against,the late Charlie Kennedy got it right.The dodgy dossier would not have made a shred of difference,and like another poster wrote,you are writing from hindsight.
 

RobFZS

Member
The UK has been highly instrumental in shaping the EU, we are not there just for the ride. If we don't like what it's become we had better look to ourselves, rather then winging that the Germans and French are too good at negotiating the results they want.
Fairly sure we did, telling all the soft fvcks we're out, stop going along for the ride
 
The free vote in the Commons has been written in here before.Nearly all Tories voted for it,many Labour voted against or abstained,and of course all Lib Dems voted against,the late Charlie Kennedy got it right.The dodgy dossier would not have made a shred of difference,and like another poster wrote,you are writing from hindsight.


Tony Blair had an obligation not to lie to Parliament.

He did. You can attempt to mask the Iraq war as a Tory problem because of the vote but perhaps the Labour Party should have not elected a leader who was a liar to the extent many millions of people paid with their lives & homes.

So what if I'm writing from hindsight ? You have to base you opinion on facts.
 

jendan

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Northumberland
Tony Blair had an obligation not to lie to Parliament.

He did. You can attempt to mask the Iraq war as a Tory problem because of the vote but perhaps the Labour Party should have not elected a leader who was a liar to the extent many millions of people paid with their lives & homes.

So what if I'm writing from hindsight ? You have to base you opinion on facts.
Do you think Blair wrote the dossier himself? The problem was him cosying up to the idiot Bush,(who was hellbent on kicking some ass after 9/11.) A lesson there for the future for May with Trump!
 

Muck Spreader

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Limousin
Tony Blair had an obligation not to lie to Parliament.

He did. You can attempt to mask the Iraq war as a Tory problem because of the vote but perhaps the Labour Party should have not elected a leader who was a liar to the extent many millions of people paid with their lives & homes.

So what if I'm writing from hindsight ? You have to base you opinion on facts.

Pity he didn't listen to France and Germany rather than wishing to become Bush's poodle.:banghead:
 
Do you think Blair wrote the dossier himself? The problem was him cosying up to the idiot Bush,(who was hellbent on kicking some ass after 9/11.) A lesson there for the future for May with Trump!


I can't see why you're defending a creep.

If Claire Short & Robin Cook were man & woman enough to stand up and be counted, what happened to the rest ?
 

Ashtree

Member
It is hard to credit that Cameron really tried to get anything or really thought that he did.



With regard to such matters, Ireland is in the convenient position that other very small countries and opposition parties also occupy, of being on the periphery and therefore safely able to moralise and carp while shrouded in a protective cloak of irrelevance. They can't do much and won't have to prove themselves, so they go on and on about what 'should' be done, safe in the knowledge that they will not be called upon to do it.

And so the empire mentality comes out . Well done.
No matter our and others irrelevance, having your sovereign parliment approve illegal wars, and giving your military carry them out, is still wrong, still illegal. Just like the empire war.
 

czechmate

Member
Mixed Farmer
A couple of questions for remainers. Do you accept that the quoted post is true or just scaremongering? If true, do you like the agenda described and if not what do you propose to do about it? Answers to these questions are vital because Brexit is all about having choices and represents our last chance. You are the people who should be scared, not us.


Does Texas, for example, have its own army?
No, whether there is or is not an eu army is of no importance to me
 

czechmate

Member
Mixed Farmer
No response then? (In fact, not sure what you mean by that, please explain :scratchhead:)

Pot, kettle, black...

Before the Referendum I made it clear that if the result was not what I wanted I would respect it. Many Remainers said the same, most have kept their word.

Out of interest what do you, + @DrWazzock for that matter, think would happen if we were to have a change of mind and, say, in a 3rd referendum 51.5% voted to remain in / re-join the EU?

Do you think the UK as a sovereign entity would still be so in twenty years? Are you happy at the thought of an unaccountable EU Army? Would you be pleased to see the 'ever closer union' completed? Do you like the idea of never being able to leave, without permission? Bearing in mind the utter failure of the EC to change or concede on any matter regarding its ever-extending reach, will you be happy to see the end of nation states?

Perhaps you will be, some are and although I think it a pretty awful thing, they are entitled to hold that opinion and full credit to them if they are honest enough to admit it. If you like these ideas please admit as much; if you don't like them and / or think them likely to happen, what absolute guarantees can you give us Eurosceptics that these things will not happen, or are you advocating a leap into the great unknown?

Responses please.


You live in Wales, yes?
Can Wales leave the uk? What's the difference? Except the uk chose to be in the eu, can't really say the same about Scotland, regarding the uk
 

bobk

Member
Location
stafford
There are just too many IFs with Brexit.

If we get a trade deal.
If we can sort the border with Eire.
If the City gets access to European financial markets.
If we can ensure continued cooperation with a multitude of European organisations with which we presently work.

Massively wide ranging and complex issues all to be sorted out within the 2 year transition period, that's IF we get a two year transition period.

So far the UK government has negotiated no cast iron agreements or assurances whatsoever from the EU, just the odd bit of goodwill which counts for absolutely nothing.

A big dose of pragmatism needed. I was originally in support of Brexit. Yes it could be done but I reckon it will lead to 20 years of pain and turmoil and for what? Just to say we are free of the EU, which we won't be?

It won't happen anyway. There isn't a big enough majority in parliament. The government will collapse this year and there will be another referendum and/or general election fought on the basis of revoking article 50.

As for corruption, inefficiency and lack of democracy, well there is plenty of that on the Town Council, the District Council and the County Council. It's not just an EU thing.

You forgot Gibralter .
 

Two Tone

Member
Mixed Farmer
And so the empire mentality comes out . Well done.
No matter our and others irrelevance, having your sovereign parliment approve illegal wars, and giving your military carry them out, is still wrong, still illegal. Just like the empire war.
Ah yes. Here we go - The empire thing again. Weren’t you lot part of the empire and wanted out? Which if I’m not mistaken you are.

Now we want out of the EU empire. What is the difference? Why should you have any influence on our decision to do so?
 

czechmate

Member
Mixed Farmer
Ah yes. Here we go - The empire thing again. Weren’t you lot part of the empire and wanted out? Which if I’m not mistaken you are.

Now we want out of the EU empire. What is the difference? Why should you have any influence on our decision to do so?


Influence- opinion?
Different things when I was at school, you went to a better (more expensive anyway) than I, we're they the same things there?
 

arcobob

Member
Location
Norfolk
You live in Wales, yes?
Can Wales leave the uk? What's the difference? Except the uk chose to be in the eu, can't really say the same about Scotland, regarding the uk
You are talking about a union made a very long while ago when there were no borders or customs unions and life was much simpler and the population very small. The four countries belong to a UNITED KINGDOM and all have proportionally equal representation in parliament over the governance of the whole. Three of the countries also have a certain amount of self determination though some don`t seem to be able to take advantage of the fact. Sure this causes friction at times when someone thinks they have a raw deal but religious sectarianism is far more of a problem than we realise.
We did not choose to be in the EU but the EEC. Our interpretation of the prospectus as presented at the time was incorrect because we were deliberately misled and have progressively been ensnared.When we joined there were six countries . Now, without consultation of the UK population, there are 28 and more in the pipeline apparently. Are you surprised that we want to escape the baited trap?
 

czechmate

Member
Mixed Farmer
You are talking about a union made a very long while ago when there were no borders or customs unions and life was much simpler and the population very small. The four countries belong to a UNITED KINGDOM and all have proportionally equal representation in parliament over the governance of the whole. Three of the countries also have a certain amount of self determination though some don`t seem to be able to take advantage of the fact. Sure this causes friction at times when someone thinks they have a raw deal but religious sectarianism is far more of a problem than we realise.
We did not choose to be in the EU but the EEC. Our interpretation of the prospectus as presented at the time was incorrect because we were deliberately misled and have progressively been ensnared.When we joined there were six countries . Now, without consultation of the UK population, there are 28 and more in the pipeline apparently. Are you surprised that we want to escape the baited trap?


Yes.
More stunned but getting used to it (made more easy living this side of the channel of course), until I watch question time again and see you are still bickering about it
 

arcobob

Member
Location
Norfolk
I never watch question time these days so have no idea what is said. No doubt the same old stuff is churned over and over just as it is here. The facts remain however and there is no doubt that acts of treachery have been performed by more than one politician over the years.
 

SFI - What % were you taking out of production?

  • 0 %

    Votes: 77 43.0%
  • Up to 25%

    Votes: 62 34.6%
  • 25-50%

    Votes: 30 16.8%
  • 50-75%

    Votes: 3 1.7%
  • 75-100%

    Votes: 3 1.7%
  • 100% I’ve had enough of farming!

    Votes: 4 2.2%

Red Tractor drops launch of green farming scheme amid anger from farmers

  • 1,286
  • 1
As reported in Independent


quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

read the TFF thread here: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/gfc-was-to-go-ahead-now-not-going-ahead.405234/
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