Oh...that Blue bull......

TALDLONKTUP2 · Jun 12, 2018

gone up the hill said:
I don't think a breeder of breeding bulls should be claiming they are very
happy to have had the odd natural calving instead of a C section!

Especially when said breeder states its a good year when they have only done 40% of C sections when in a typical year the figure is much higher.

If there was ever a bad advert for blue bulls the comments of the OP has made in this and other threads would be it sadly!

That's missing the point of these bulls. They're there to breed quality when crossed to a plain cow, so the attention the pure breds need is kind of irrelevant. It's the same as people whining about how soft a bfl is....yes you need to be mindful of problems but at the end of the day they are designed for crossing, and to get the ultimate performance in the crossbred offspring you need to be looking to the extremes in the pure breds. The OP is at least addressing the issues of importance to the commercial man (which many if not most aren't) and that should be commended. Yes you could breed for a ceasarian free pure bred but the bulls would probably throw crap cross breds for the commercial man. Everything's a compromise. It depends where your priorities are.

Pigken · Jun 12, 2018

TALDLONKTUP2 said:
That's missing the point of these bulls. They're there to breed quality when crossed to a plain cow, so the attention the pure breds need is kind of irrelevant. It's the same as people whining about how soft a bfl is....yes you need to be mindful of problems but at the end of the day they are designed for crossing, and to get the ultimate performance in the crossbred offspring you need to be looking to the extremes in the pure breds. The OP is at least addressing the issues of importance to the commercial man (which many if not most aren't) and that should be commended. Yes you could breed for a ceasarian free pure bred but the bulls would probably throw crap cross breds for the commercial man. Everything's a compromise. It depends where your priorities are.

Surely point is, but I may be missing it, that as with sheep stratification system, those at beginning or top of tree, need to start off with straight forward simple traits and breed for this, natural or easy calving surely should be high up list of priorities? Looks etc, should be dis missed, when people in other threads on here keep questioning the cost of producing a suckled calf and wanting easier cheaper system, starting point of sire who had to be pulled or c sectioned is not the way to go, that can not be a good start for commercial production, getting back to sheep, lambed at pedigree texel place once, every lamb pulled, reason given was "well that could be our next big money tup" been nieve as I am, asked surely that does not help the next man buying from you, response "not my bother" as with their EBVs few lambs picked up and average birth weights across flock put down, scores for ease of lambing well ! What I am trying to get at is with out criticising ops calf system is, a lot of us know somet about pedigree herds flocks and how figures (EBVs) can be tweaked, none of this is helping man further down production system trying to improve /put out quality stock when starting product is wrong , surely as an industry we should be trying to look at what is good for the masses and not be selfish, working together, remember some breeding company's already have over 10000 genotyping results for some breeds, all connected back to "the dreaded supermarket processor producer contract s, that they seem close to pushing further,

GenuineRisk · Jun 12, 2018

This is a pedigree herd producing bulls for commercial use and breeding heifers for ourselves and others. The value of each bull or heifer compared to an average suckler calf, is very different so we don’t take unnecessary risks when calving. Most of our cattle are halter broken, hence why Feisty had one on - easier if you do have to assist. Ropes nearly always go on too as for the sake of a bit of a pull, we want the calf out promptly. It’s exactly the same when I’m foaling, which is much quicker and with bigger foals, a steady pull in time with the mare pushing can mean the difference between a live or dead foal. I appreciate it’s not how the commercial suckler guy in the main wants to approach calving but this is, as I said, a different operation. That said, we’ve sold many bulls to date now and they’ve done the job commercially very well and I don’t need to ‘defend’ our breeding record because demand speaks for itself.

The point of this thread was to show that the the individual bull (which was the subject of what I, my partner and, judging by my inbox at the time, a whole raft of other members on here felt was a very unpleasant personal attack) was perfectly sound and capable of producing good calves. In my eyes, job done. It’s not about changing the mindset of those who don’t like the breed - start a different thread if you want to continue breed bashing by all means. I’m off to enjoy looking at our stock and doing the usual rounds - love days like these. !

CharcoalWally · Jun 12, 2018

Pigken said:
Surely point is, but I may be missing it, that as with sheep stratification system, those at beginning or top of tree, need to start off with straight forward simple traits and breed for this, natural or easy calving surely should be high up list of priorities? Looks etc, should be dis missed, when people in other threads on here keep questioning the cost of producing a suckled calf and wanting easier cheaper system, starting point of sire who had to be pulled or c sectioned is not the way to go, that can not be a good start for commercial production, getting back to sheep, lambed at pedigree texel place once, every lamb pulled, reason given was "well that could be our next big money tup" been nieve as I am, asked surely that does not help the next man buying from you, response "not my bother" as with their EBVs few lambs picked up and average birth weights across flock put down, scores for ease of lambing well ! What I am trying to get at is with out criticising ops calf system is, a lot of us know somet about pedigree herds flocks and how figures (EBVs) can be tweaked, none of this is helping man further down production system trying to improve /put out quality stock when starting product is wrong , surely as an industry we should be trying to look at what is good for the masses and not be selfish, working together, remember some breeding company's already have over 10000 genotyping results for some breeds, all connected back to "the dreaded supermarket processor producer contract s, that they seem close to pushing further,

I am not a user of the Blue breed, but what gets told to me time and time again by my fellow commercial farmers, is what an easy breed they are to calve. A focus by breeders on short gestation periods and low birth weight must have made a difference , as a quick look through my Genus catalogue soon shows which breed is most popular with dairy farmers. Plus, I have read many testimonials from dairy farmers on here about how pleased they have been with calves off their Newpole sires , and for that @GenuineRisk deserves to be congratuled rather than slated on here, as our job as breeders is surely to make life better for commercial customers. That's where the satisfaction and reward comes from, as well as building a base for the future.

So as a sheep farmer, I understand the parallel that @TALDLONKTUP2 draws with the sheep world. Farmers like things simple. They are content to sneer at a pure breed whilst not understanding what their commercial offspring bring to the equation. They like to call them "freaks " - well , freaks they may be, but I bet almost every breeding development throughout time has been called just that.

Sometimes when harnessed the right way, these freaks might just prove to be something wonderful.

AGN76 · Jun 12, 2018

As @CharcoalWally says, we pull few calves, but they'll more often than not be Limousin rather than a blue.

AGN76 · Jun 12, 2018

@GenuineRisk, what are the PG bulls that genus have on test? Lancer, latte etc. What does PG mean?

AGN76 · Jun 12, 2018

Qman said:
I've used Newpole Easy and he is a fantastic bull. Easy calving and a good growth rate, so if the new one is as good as him he'll do well. Trouble is I can't get any semen now, too popular!

There's plenty of Easy straws according To my rep :scratchhead:

Whitepeak · Jun 12, 2018

@GenuineRisk is it true that any calving difficulty’s in pure Blues are due to the cow and not the bull? I’m sure I read in a Roger Blowey book that the Blues pelvic structure is slightly different to other breeds. The breed has probably changed since that book was written though.
Also how are you getting bulls into AI if you don’t record? If you don’t mind me asking. If the Blondes try to get more bulls into AI studs we keep getting told there aren’t enough recorded bulls about and that they only take bulls with EBVs.

GenuineRisk · Jun 12, 2018

@AGN76 Genus have taken the decision they want to ‘protect’ their genetics - as has Cogent, incidentally. One way they decided to do this was to pay the BBCS a fee per bull, to compensate for any loss of pedigree registrations, and for those bulls to move to a commercial use only register. So anyone using bulls from that list cannot register a pedigree from it without written permission. Ordinary commercial use isn’t affected, so all crossbreds no different to previously.

We contract flush for them regularly and there are certain female families we consider to be mainly Genus families, others are more generic. We are not exclusive to any one AI company.

@Whitepeak pelvic size is key, of course and we do measure our females. Shape varies - we do find that some have almost a spur laterally on the pelvis, which is not desirable. Age also is a factor as we all know - most of our females will go to a Lim or Wagyu first and how easily they shell that out tells us what type of ped bull to use next. I believe bulls can be categorised as ‘easy-calving’ on pedigrees - we have a few we keep in the tank for the next step. Thereafter, it’s a question of what are we aiming for with that particular cow, bearing in mind we aren’t always wanting bulls, quite often we want females from a particular family and sexed semen isn’t that common still for bulls we are interested in.

What we believe gets forgotten is that it’s the combo of the double muscling with fine bone that is key to the bull being an easy calver. The show ring has a lot to answer for that, as judges find a more heavily boned animal more pleasing to their eyes, espcially with a view to interbreed competitions and prefer a taller animal with a large frame, heavier bone and good muscling - in our view, not the best combos for easy calving. That’s only our opinion though (as in me and Phil), we’ve long been viewed as a bit progressive by others!

I think the AI studs have long since recognised EBVs in Blues aren’t worth much and espcially because there is a high proportion of Embryo Transfer calves to factor in. What matters are calving surveys, every time, for dairy herds.

GenuineRisk · Jun 12, 2018

@CharcoalWally - thank you for that - shown to partner Phil and his vet student daughter Pippy this morning and they are also very appreciative.

If we all did exactly the same thing, not only would it be boring it would also not be commercially viable either and I believe we are fortunate to have the variety of breeds we do, which suit certain farming styles and geographical areas. Without farmer breeders who are invested in their breeds and who power on following their beliefs in them, the livestock industry would be a much poorer place.

gone up the hill · Jun 12, 2018

TALDLONKTUP2 said:
That's missing the point of these bulls. They're there to breed quality when crossed to a plain cow, so the attention the pure breds need is kind of irrelevant. It's the same as people whining about how soft a bfl is....yes you need to be mindful of problems but at the end of the day they are designed for crossing, and to get the ultimate performance in the crossbred offspring you need to be looking to the extremes in the pure breds. The OP is at least addressing the issues of importance to the commercial man (which many if not most aren't) and that should be commended. Yes you could breed for a ceasarian free pure bred but the bulls would probably throw crap cross breds for the commercial man. Everything's a compromise. It depends where your priorities are.

Dairy and suckler farmers want a live cow and a live calve with the min of hassle/ assistance being given at calving and this apply's to ALL breeds and not just BB cattle.

The amount of C sections the OP of this thread carry's out year on year is utterly shocking and should not be acceptable on welfare grounds in this day and age, and imagine if the anti farming lobby picks up on what the OP is doing, it would be an utter PR disaster for the beef industry!

Imagine if a 300 cow dairy herd was carrying out 100+ ( say 30% of the total herd ) C sections a year, there would be uproar, yet some on here think this % is totally acceptable for a pedigree bull breeder to be doing!..........................

Any breeder of any breed of bull should be working to have as few C sections as possible ( and yes of course we all will get the odd one now and again ).

lazy farmer · Jun 12, 2018

still as angry, belligerent , and repetitive as ever.
The OP has stated how far the British Blue has moved on from the British Blue and no doubt over time it will move on further.
its called evolution.

gone up the hill · Jun 12, 2018

lazy farmer said:
still as angry, belligerent , and repetitive as ever.
The OP has stated how far the British Blue has moved on from the British Blue and no doubt over time it will move on further.
its called evolution.

Yep it has but she seems to intent on taking it back a generation when it comes to things like calving ease.

S J H · Jun 12, 2018

GenuineRisk said:
This is a pedigree herd producing bulls for commercial use and breeding heifers for ourselves and others. The value of each bull or heifer compared to an average suckler calf, is very different so we don’t take unnecessary risks when calving. Most of our cattle are halter broken, hence why Feisty had one on - easier if you do have to assist. Ropes nearly always go on too as for the sake of a bit of a pull, we want the calf out promptly. It’s exactly the same when I’m foaling, which is much quicker and with bigger foals, a steady pull in time with the mare pushing can mean the difference between a live or dead foal. I appreciate it’s not how the commercial suckler guy in the main wants to approach calving but this is, as I said, a different operation. That said, we’ve sold many bulls to date now and they’ve done the job commercially very well and I don’t need to ‘defend’ our breeding record because demand speaks for itself.

The point of this thread was to show that the the individual bull (which was the subject of what I, my partner and, judging by my inbox at the time, a whole raft of other members on here felt was a very unpleasant personal attack) was perfectly sound and capable of producing good calves. In my eyes, job done. It’s not about changing the mindset of those who don’t like the breed - start a different thread if you want to continue breed bashing by all means. I’m off to enjoy looking at our stock and doing the usual rounds - love days like these. !

I think you won the argument when he started a thread criticising the bull, but later in the thread praised a photo of a bull not realising it was the same one.

gone up the hill · Jun 12, 2018

S J H said:
I think you won the argument when he started a thread criticising the bull, but later in the thread praised a photo of a bull not realising it was the same one.

The biggest issue is the amount of C sections the OP carry's out on a routine basis...

Very few farmers would carry out so many C sections that they have had a crush made especially for the job like the OP has done!

S J H · Jun 12, 2018

gone up the hill said:
The biggest issue is the amount of C sections the OP carry's out on a routine basis...

Very few farmers would carry out so many C sections that they have had a crush made especially for the job like the OP has done!

The biggest issue is you starting a thread criticising someone else's bull. Grow some rubbish and speak to them directly rather than posting on social media. I lost all respect for you after that thread.

gone up the hill · Jun 12, 2018

S J H said:
The biggest issue is you starting a thread criticising someone else's bull. Grow some rubbish and speak to them directly rather than posting on social media. I lost all respect for you after that thread.

She can PM me anytime but has chosen not to.

lazy farmer · Jun 12, 2018

why should she ? given your stance/attitude/ belligerence I wouldn't

gone up the hill · Jun 12, 2018

lazy farmer said:
why should she ? given your stance/attitude/ belligerence I wouldn't

She doesn't have to, just like I don't have to PM her like SJH says I should.

S J H · Jun 12, 2018

gone up the hill said:
She doesn't have to, just like I don't have to PM her like SJH says I should.

No, I'd probably have spoken to them in person, or kept my nose out.

Oh...that Blue bull......

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