AGN76
Member
- Location
- north Wales
There must be more Newpole bulls in 'dairy' Ai studs, where calving ease is king than any other prefix, so it can't all be bad!
The biggest issue is the amount of C sections the OP carry's out on a routine basis...
Very few farmers would carry out so many C sections that they have had a crush made especially for the job like the OP has done!
Who on here thinks it is ok? unless I read it wrong even the ones you got such a hard on for don't think it is as they said that % was a bad year and abnormal for them.Imagine if a 300 cow dairy herd was carrying out 100+ ( say 30% of the total herd ) C sections a year, there would be uproar, yet some on here think this % is totally acceptable for a pedigree bull breeder to be doing!..........................
The biggest issue is the amount of C sections the OP carry's out on a routine basis...
Very few farmers would carry out so many C sections that they have had a crush made especially for the job like the OP has done!
No, I'd probably have spoken to them in person, or kept my nose out.
The illusion of security brought about by the apparent anonymity of the internet has a lot to answer for...
Very few farmers run pedigree blues.
I don’t see any issue with it. Where is the welfare problem? cows aren’t stressed, set up is A1 so reduces risk of infection and better chance of live healthy calf. They are at top of the pyramid if they have few extra c sections but dairy cows as a whole have easier calvings with a better valued calf at the end of it what’s the issue?
Anyway, the general public is getting to be too posh to push, they probably think cows should have the same choices. I don’t think it is a massive negative for agriculture
I agree, though the number of c sections doesn't appear in the cross bred off spring apparently. Having said that the welfare of the pure breds needs to be considered as well, so it's certainly a dilemma that needs to be debated properly......my vet is beltex breeder ( yes I know, back to sheep!) and we were standing over a pen at the auction looking some ped beltex (his actually!) Bow legged, short necked, snorting and snotting at the nose and I asked a leading question if that should be of concern to a buyer. He said no, that's just the way They're bred. I said I thought it was a disgrace that anyone should breed an animal like that (whilst pretending I Didn't know they were his!.. though implying, especially as a vet!) He said "well......that's just what the buyer wants...!!!!". Too be fair that was about ten years ago, I think things are certainly improving now and that seems to be the case with the BB cattle as well. Ultimately breeders breed the animals they are asked for, it just might take a while for buyers to figure out what they want and the sellers to respond, though again compromises will always have to be made. The debate is where to make that compromise.Dairy and suckler farmers want a live cow and a live calve with the min of hassle/ assistance being given at calving and this apply's to ALL breeds and not just BB cattle.
The amount of C sections the OP of this thread carry's out year on year is utterly shocking and should not be acceptable on welfare grounds in this day and age, and imagine if the anti farming lobby picks up on what the OP is doing, it would be an utter PR disaster for the beef industry!
Imagine if a 300 cow dairy herd was carrying out 100+ ( say 30% of the total herd ) C sections a year, there would be uproar, yet some on here think this % is totally acceptable for a pedigree bull breeder to be doing!..........................
Any breeder of any breed of bull should be working to have as few C sections as possible ( and yes of course we all will get the odd one now and again ).
We’ll be at Mid Devon Show, pre movement tests permitting, which is GUTH’s local, so please do come and see us - and anyone else who has a problem with us, come to that. Those that don’t - hospitality is always available and early mornings we have bacon butties on the go !
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I agree, , so it's certainly a dilemma that needs to be debated properly...... Ultimately breeders breed the animals they are asked for, it just might take a while for buyers to figure out what they want and the sellers to respond, though again compromises will always have to be made. The debate is where to make that compromise.
Speaking personally, I look at a bull's locomotion and the breeds ability to calve naturally as paramount. I don't think it's fair that non-farming buyers downgrade native breeds that achieve this over ones that need high levels of assistance or c-section intervention and it's an open goal to the NGO lobbies that will inevitably affect all of us
I’m almost tempted to come down. Should I bring some popcorn?
(I suspect he’ll have something on that day though)
We’ll be at Mid Devon Show, - hospitality is always available and early mornings we have bacon butties on the go !
But you’re comparing apples with pears and I’d also ask just how many pure native cattle breeders do so on a commercial scale to make a living? There are plenty doing it either as part of their income pot or as a hobby and there’s inherently nothing wrong with that but it’s a different scale. Same applies to anyone breeding two or three pedigree anythings per year - I find it difficult to understand how you can make generalisations about a breed when you’re experience of it is so limited.
Phil also runs a dairy herd, I can assure you that c-sections are just unheard of over there and he runs, being totally honest, the cast off blues from here! Having the Blues, after having run everything from Hereford to Lim bulls, has literally kept the wolf from their doors during times of negative milk prices. He doesn’t run white or white blue bulls either any more, because he can’t afford them Frequently, he’ll take up stirks or stores, all black or black and white and drovers at Sedgemoor just say ‘nice to seek you’re bringing decent suckler breds up, Phil’ . So while it’s a pretty picture visualising everything being a native crossbred, all pasture fed and with minimal input from the livestock keeper, it just isn’t practical, especially when you consider the geographical impact in certain parts of the UK. Weather and land prices, sheer numbers of the human population, all are huge factors on the practicality of everyone going native breeds. I do believe eventually, the general population will wake up to the fact that we don’t pay enough for our food but it’s not coming anytime soon. So do I consider I should subsidise those of you who want higher prices for your chosen farming practice ? Quite frankly, no, I don’t - while the product we are producing is reliable, healthy and can give the average dairy farmer a better return on their calf, stirk or stores, encouraging all the while the use of sexed dairy semen on their heifers for replacements and removing the, to me, heartbreaking practice of shooting a live, healthy dairy bull calf, then both me and Phil know we’re on the right track.
No commercial suckler should need strong intervention calving btw but what yourˆre omitting from your comments @JP1, is fact that easy, stress free calving is down to cow management in the main, not the choice of bull!
We simply cannot meet the demand for white bulls right now and we do have to use embryo transfer to achieve fulfilling just some of our orders. This is a commercial outfit!
I’ll tell you what bugs me about native breeds is that most of them were pretty grateful to introduce same coloured continentals when it suited them, because genetically they were in a deep hole and realised it was useless to keep digging! I also don’t get the desire to produce a beast with a certain coat pattern either - they’re all red when they’re dead, you know! Having bred dogs to a pretty high level and also horses commercially, one thing I’ve learned along the way is breeding for one particular characteristic, especially colour pattern or shade, is the road to perdition for a breed viz trying to breed for s pale silver colour in my own canine breed, Weimaraners, has led to overly fine bone, allergies and god knows what else. We certainly don’t breed just white Blues, again, that is too restrictive genetically and I could see eventually If you went down that route, health issues also occurring. Weirdly, it’s now really only the SW that are totally insistent on white Blues for dairy.
One of the biggest ares of improvement in the Blue is that of locomotion - they were quite rightly pilloried for bad mobility back in the day. That is not so much the case now - anyone coming to Three Counties, we have two senior bulls there - the infamous Lomu and Lorenzo, a very different type of bull. Lorenzo was one half of the Burke Trophy winning pair at Devon County, judged by a gentleman who has always held the same view, that Blues have suffered from poor mobility and never been a fan but he was happy to say in his critique how good their mobility was and it was the clinching reason for them winning. Improving any breed characteristic takes generations, many, many wrong turns, a few risky decisions and a passion for that breed. We are ruthlessly culling non profitable pedigree females - one section should it occur is always forgiven because that’s us getting the bull choice wrong or it was mal presented etc etc, two isn’t and they go. I can’t speak for anyone else’s livestock breeding practices and wouldn’t want to. We all have our own consciences after all.
I'd guess you'll be safe enough.I’m almost tempted to come down. Should I bring some popcorn?
(I suspect he’ll have something on that day though)
My view is that if you’ve ever bought a BB-cross animal or have used BB semen then you’re a supporter of the breed and haven’t got any right to criticise it.