Stoves

Lincoln75 · Nov 7, 2018

renewablejohn said:
Come on installing a stove is not rocket science for any practical farmer its no more difficult than a bit of dry stone walling. As others have said Hetas believe they have a monopoly but unless the law has changed recently that is not the case. As for stoves all I would say is get one that is approved for use in a smoke controlled area as the UK government have already warned that for air improvement reasons the existing legislation will be rolled out to cover most of the country not just the urban sprawl of mainly Northern towns and cities.

Theres a lot more to it than connecting the flue and hoping for the best, most of the regs are not about air pollution but to ensure the occupants dont die of CO poisoning .comparing it with dry stone walling is as ridiculous as comparing it with milking cows.

To do the job safely you need to know what flue angles can be used, diameter, spillage , airation,ventilation ,distances from combustible material , hearth sizes, CO detector placement etc.
IIRC the only way you can legally get around not using Hetas is to have the building inspectorate sign it off, this costs more than paying a Hetas engineer to sign it off and most won't if they don't install the stove.

"Each year, about 50 people die in the UK from CO poisoning"

CO Poisoning

Testing

milkloss · Nov 7, 2018

Cows 'n grass said:
I've just had 3 quotes for lining another chimney and not one of them was going to use vermiculite. They all said they used to use it but it was causing too many damp issues in old buildings.

I get your point but I’m unsure if damp would be an issue if the chimney is being used. Could be a choice between damp and a chimney like I posted above.

Lincoln75 · Nov 7, 2018

milkloss said:
I get your point but I’m unsure if damp would be an issue if the chimney is being used. Could be a choice between damp and a chimney like I posted above.

Twin wall liner may be the only way, expensive and often difficult to fit within an existing chimney.

Also chimwrap may be suitable

milkloss · Nov 7, 2018

Lincoln75 said:
Twin wall liner may be the only way, expensive and often difficult to fit within an existing chimney.

Also chimwrap may be suitable

You would have expected a HETAS accredited installer to know all about that sort of stuff

Lincoln75 · Nov 7, 2018

milkloss said:
You would have expected a HETAS accredited installer to know all about that sort of stuff

Its like any industry , you get some who are switched on and others who may well be be qualified but still hopeless.

Lincoln75 · Nov 7, 2018

milkloss said:
Wouldn’t trust any installer just to get on with the job, hetas or no hetas.
Had a very well known firm locally do a chimney on the man’s cottage and completely fcked it up:

View attachment 735952

Yes, there is a high grade, 6month old liner in there! The so called professionals that demanded a high price for the job (the old man was soft on the company as it’s a local name) decided backfilling the void with vermiculite wasn’t necessary. Smoke supercooled at the pot and did the above.

Anyone needing work done and I will happily pm who to avoid in Sussex.

You shouldn't burn car tyres

milkloss · Nov 7, 2018

Lincoln75 said:
You shouldn't burn car tyres

It’s a Rayburn........ mobility scooter tyres

honeyend · Nov 7, 2018

Lincoln75 said:
Theres a lot more to it than connecting the flue and hoping for the best, most of the regs are not about air pollution but to ensure the occupants dont die of CO poisoning .comparing it with dry stone walling is as ridiculous as comparing it with milking cows.

To do the job safely you need to know what flue angles can be used, diameter, spillage , airation,ventilation ,distances from combustible material , hearth sizes, CO detector placement etc.
IIRC the only way you can legally get around not using Hetas is to have the building inspectorate sign it off, this costs more than paying a Hetas engineer to sign it off and most won't if they don't install the stove.

"Each year, about 50 people die in the UK from CO poisoning"

CO Poisoning

Testing

While I agree you have to have knowledge and an understanding of how it works, you can go online and find all the regulations, diagrams etc that would make your installation safe.
When I get anyone to do anything I do my background research to find out how anything should be done. When I get the quotes, I ask them questions about how they are going to do it, and generally act a bit dim. Sometimes they haven't got a clue, the worst are trying to make a fast buck.
The worst expert is one that thinks they know everything, when really you only know what you know. The heating engineer who installed our heating, he had all the certificates really didn't understand all the kit he was installing, one safety feature was left out completely, the manufactures technical trouble shooter came out, two years later we are sorting it out ourselves.
I think the problem now is people now did not grow up with fires, and want and air tight box with no draughts to live in. I grew up with coal fires and have had three types of solid fuels systems and who ever wants them should do the cleaning, every where. Dusty, dirty, messy and hard work. If its in a workshop fine.

Lincoln75 · Nov 7, 2018

honeyend said:
While I agree you have to have knowledge and an understanding of how it works, you can go online and find all the regulations, diagrams etc that would make your installation safe.
When I get anyone to do anything I do my background research to find out how anything should be done. When I get the quotes, I ask them questions about how they are going to do it, and generally act a bit dim. Sometimes they haven't got a clue, the worst are trying to make a fast buck.
The worst expert is one that thinks they know everything, when really you only know what you know. The heating engineer who installed our heating, he had all the certificates really didn't understand all the kit he was installing, one safety feature was left out completely, the manufactures technical trouble shooter came out, two years later we are sorting it out ourselves.
I think the problem now is people now did not grow up with fires, and want and air tight box with no draughts to live in. I grew up and have had three types of solid fuels systems and who ever wants them should do the cleaning, every where. Dusty, dirty, messy and hard work. If its in a workshop fine.

It still boils down to the fact a DIY fit usually invalidates your house insurance should you need to claim for fire and sometimes DIY fits are a breach of planning regs , finally do you want to risk your family keeling over whilst watching tv? carbon monoxide does not smell but it certainly kills , better safe than sorry.

If you are not happy with the work a HETAS fitter has done contact HETAS and they will send an inspector out , if the work is dodgy the fitter will be forced to do it correctly .

SilliamWhale · Nov 7, 2018

Dmc said:
Multi fuel stoves. The good the bad and the ugly between 10-14 kw

Thats a pretty big stove. Is your room bigger than 90m2?

Dry Rot · Nov 7, 2018

TheTallGuy said:
Actually they are not "CE Approved" as there isn't a CE Approvals body for such things! CE regulations are enforced by national governments or their delegated authorities & for most things it is down to the manufacturer or importer to self certify that their products are compliant with the CE regulations - actually EN13240 and EN13229 for solid fuel stoves. So even though you buy a stove with a CE mark there is no guarantee that it is compliant.

My chimney sweep signs off the appliance every time he sweeps the chimney.

Dry Rot · Nov 7, 2018

Lincoln75 said:
It still boils down to the fact a DIY fit usually invalidates your house insurance should you need to claim for fire and sometimes DIY fits are a breach of planning regs , finally do you want to risk your family keeling over whilst watching tv? carbon monoxide does not smell but it certainly kills , better safe than sorry..

I've a CO detector. In fact, I have two of them.

If you are not happy with the work a HETAS fitter has done contact HETAS and they will send an inspector out , if the work is dodgy the fitter will be forced to do it correctly .

You are joking, of course. As stated in a previous post, HETAS did not want to know about my problems with a HETAS installer. This is what happened: Followed by a trip to A&E when I started to cough up blood.

Lincoln75 · Nov 7, 2018

Dry Rot said:
I've a CO detector. In fact, I have two of them.

You are joking, of course. As stated in a previous post, HETAS did not want to know about my problems with a HETAS installer. This is what happened: Followed by a trip to A&E when I started to cough up blood.

View attachment 736014 View attachment 736016

I would have gone to HSE and Citizens advice.

TheTallGuy · Nov 7, 2018

Lincoln75 said:
Total nonsense , Ive worked in the heating industry at manufacturing level and it certainly isnt up to the manufacturer to ensure compliance , each model has to be tested by an accredited testing laboratory and signed off.

Testing

CE approval

Each model may be "signed off", but not every appliance off the line goes through an independent accredited testing house so the manufacturers self certify that the appliance off the line is constructed to the same standard as the one(s) that went for testing. Whilst reputable manufacturers will have adequate controls in place to maintain the standard & there are those who will send random production units for verification, there are others who are less diligent & that's before even looking at those who import from the far east.

Lincoln75 · Nov 7, 2018

TheTallGuy said:
Each model may be "signed off", but not every appliance off the line goes through an independent accredited testing house so the manufacturers self certify that the appliance off the line is constructed to the same standard as the one(s) that went for testing. Whilst reputable manufacturers will have adequate controls in place to maintain the standard & there are those who will send random production units for verification, there are others who are less diligent & that's before even looking at those who import from the far east.

Having worked in that industry I can safely say that if you can prove your statements the manufacturers and retailers flouting the rules will have any certification revoked and prosecuted , those who have no certification will be prosecuted in a criminal court as its a criminal offence , buying off ebay is setting yourself up for trouble but the big players like machine mart are not so stupid as to sell non certified stoves.
Effectively what you are saying is there's fake stoves out there , no big surprise as theres fake everything these days.
Its also worth noting that if you use a HETAS fitter to install your stove they may (should) turn down the job if the stove is not certified.

TheTallGuy · Nov 7, 2018

Lincoln75 said:
Having worked in that industry I can safely say that if you can prove your statements the manufacturers and retailers flouting the rules will have any certification revoked and prosecuted , those who have no certification will be prosecuted in a criminal court as its a criminal offence , buying off ebay is setting yourself up for trouble but the big players like machine mart are not so stupid as to sell non certified stoves.
Effectively what you are saying is there's fake stoves out there , no big surprise as theres fake everything these days.

It's been a criminal offence to sell pretty much anything that doesn't properly comply with the various regulations and for falsely declaring CE compliance, but it still happens! Yes, transgressors may be prosecuted - if caught, but how long was horse meat in our food before anyone was caught? Tesco are much bigger the MachineMart, but they still got caught out. How much flamable cladding was applied to buildings without fundamental testing before Greenfell?

I've worked in industries with much higher regulation than heating & yet I have seen paperwork "massaged" or unchecked with potentially catastrophic consequences & yet nobody went to court.

Trading Standards have limited resources & for the most part react to specific complaints, especially when it becomes big headline news.

Lincoln75 · Nov 7, 2018

TheTallGuy said:
It's been a criminal offence to sell pretty much anything that doesn't properly comply with the various regulations and for falsely declaring CE compliance, but it still happens! Yes, transgressors may be prosecuted - if caught, but how long was horse meat in our food before anyone was caught? Tesco are much bigger the MachineMart, but they still got caught out. How much flamable cladding was applied to buildings without fundamental testing before Greenfell?

I've worked in industries with much higher regulation than heating & yet I have seen paperwork "massaged" or unchecked with potentially catastrophic consequences & yet nobody went to court.

Trading Standards have limited resources & for the most part react to specific complaints, especially when it becomes big headline news.

I think we all know that , so your point is ?

bobk · Nov 7, 2018

Lincoln75 said:
Theres a lot more to it than connecting the flue and hoping for the best, most of the regs are not about air pollution but to ensure the occupants dont die of CO poisoning .comparing it with dry stone walling is as ridiculous as comparing it with milking cows.

To do the job safely you need to know what flue angles can be used, diameter, spillage , airation,ventilation ,distances from combustible material , hearth sizes, CO detector placement etc.
IIRC the only way you can legally get around not using Hetas is to have the building inspectorate sign it off, this costs more than paying a Hetas engineer to sign it off and most won't if they don't install the stove.

"Each year, about 50 people die in the UK from CO poisoning"

CO Poisoning

Testing

Surprised you get out of bed in a morning .... there's danger everywhere . jobsworths have fooked this country

Lincoln75 · Nov 7, 2018

bobk said:
Surprised you get out of bed in a morning .... there's danger everywhere . jobsworths have fooked this country

On the contrary , its the morons who have no regard for others safety that have made it necessary to have all the rules and regs.

bobk · Nov 7, 2018

Lincoln75 said:
On the contrary , its the morons who have no regard for others safety that have made it necessary to have all the rules and regs.

Is it , a HETAS qualification is only good the day the installer was tested , doesn't mean he's competent .

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