"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

holwellcourtfarm · Jul 31, 2019

Henarar said:
I did look again at your pic after I posted and thought it didn't look like it had been wet well not wet enough to mark up

we have keep lambs in for the winter they usually do one round, I remember a few years ago the chap put them in a field where there was a good feed of grass but it was wet under foot, it rained like mad and they just shoved the lot in the ground, next day I had to get him to move them to a dryer bigger field cos it was brown with mud and they had nart to eat but it wasn't gone anywhere apart from in the ground
folk talk of over wintering cattle but sometimes this land won't take lambs
now I know some of it may be down to structure and lack of soil building and cover which is probably my fault but how you get round the soild lump of yellow clay that's down there I don't know

Rob Havard was talking about his out-wintering yesterday. He's got clay and sand in different parts of the farm and laughed about folk who go there to look then say "Ah, but you're on sand, you couldn't outwinter on our clay" or "You're on clay, you couldn't outwinter on our sand"!

He reckons once you get up to 12 or 13% SOM and have plenty of vegetation on top it carries the cows with very little damage. In the worst weather he bale grazes hay and lets them tread a load in as well.

Kiwi Pete · Jul 31, 2019

Blaithin said:
BSE is considered to be contracted within the first year of the animals life and can become "active" anytime from 2 to 8 years after contamination, depending on a variety of factors. The ideal slaughter age here is under 24 months which keeps the animal clear of having even subclinical BSE. To my knowledge it is an OIE guideline to treat animals as higher risk that are OTM. In Canada, anything under 30 months only requires the distal ileum removed; Anything OTM requires ALL SRM to be removed. So either we're making work age verifying to save work at the slaughterhouses in removing SRM, or we're saving work not age verifying but causing more work at the slaughterhouses because they have to remove the SRM from every animal?

As for an arbitrary number... while not exactly an exact science, mouthing cattle can easily age them in the 24 month range and then under 30 months. Once they're over 30 months mouthing becomes more of a hassle and guessing game the older they get.

What about residues in meat? Withholding periods for all drugs in livestock are more concrete than any residue periods in chemicals used on crops.

Not that there is a big fuss over age verification here - it's something they want us to do but aren't pushing hard - but again, even if the animal is going to be just hamburger any older carcass will require more work with all SRM being removed. Young hamburger won't require that extra step.

As for traceability... it offers security from a variety of things. In 2016 a cow at slaughter was found to have TB. Because of the traceability program they got a wide net out for all cattle she was in contact with and kept that a very contained issue. Our traceability allows Canada to keep it's TB free status because we are able to do this.

Yes it's more work tagging. Yes it's another level of bureaucracy that can move at a snails pace. Yes, many people don't consider it to be efficient or overly effective. But it's better than nothing. It took 12 years for some countries to finally open their borders to Canadian beef after our BSE outbreak. In a country as reliant on export as we are, providing security to our export markets is a big goal of the industry. If that security involves traceability and age verification so be it. It doesn't all have to be individual passports for each animal.

AFAIK they simply remove all the SRM from cattle of any age here, as a condition of market entry for many buyers stipulates it.
They certainly did where I worked - I wonder if it's more due to average scale/throughput of slaughterhouses elsewhere?

That's a large part of why I'm questioning the methodology where there's been BSE, as there "appears" to be a more pragmatic approach to it here, where it's not (yet).
They just bin all SRM 'and be done with it' which means less faffing about at the producer's end (although all cattle are RFID tagged, recorded age on some beef farms will only be to the nearest year

)

I guess my own view is a good example of "paradigms"?

Residues in meat, another good example of that - to me, a pretty dedicated carnivore, it'd be a consideration if we ate a lot of bought meat, but we just don't. Nothing here is treated with anything other than a big dose of respect, however the view I get from social media re livestock seems to be much more directed towards either "the Vegan Argument" or the ethical, environmental aspects.
That's a contrast to cereals and veg, where it seems to be all about the perceived wrongdoings of Monsanto et al and alot of other rubbish along those lines.
Most of it seems far more based on perception and emotion, than the realities of commodity production that has to revolve around monocultures, due to harvesting tech available.
I suppose a large part of this comes back to that paradigm thing, again, as for a long time people believed chems would just keep coming, and monocultures would be sustainable forever as such.

Interesting stuff to consider, I'm pretty glad to have someone like you to discuss it with.

Kiwi Pete · Jul 31, 2019

holwellcourtfarm said:
Rob Havard was talking about his out-wintering yesterday. He's got clay and sand in different parts of the farm and laughed about folk who go there to look then say "Ah, but you're on sand, you couldn't outwinter on our clay" or "You're on clay, you couldn't outwinter on our sand"!

He reckons once you get up to 12 or 13% SOM and have plenty of vegetation on top it carries the cows with very little damage. In the worst weather he bale grazes hay and lets them tread a load in as well.

I'd have to agree with that, it is pretty much exactly what we have found as well.

Within reason, you make a lot of your own luck with outwintering livestock... it's amazingly easy when it's dry, and amazingly effective when you do get rain events - if you put the work in during the growing season

holwellcourtfarm · Jul 31, 2019

Kiwi Pete said:
AFAIK they simply remove all the SRM from cattle of any age here, as a condition of market entry for many buyers stipulates it.
They certainly did where I worked - I wonder if it's more due to average scale/throughput of slaughterhouses elsewhere?

That's a large part of why I'm questioning the methodology where there's been BSE, as there "appears" to be a more pragmatic approach to it here, where it's not (yet).
They just bin all SRM 'and be done with it' which means less faffing about at the producer's end (although all cattle are RFID tagged, recorded age on some beef farms will only be to the nearest year )

I guess my own view is a good example of "paradigms"?

Residues in meat, another good example of that - to me, a pretty dedicated carnivore, it'd be a consideration if we ate a lot of bought meat, but we just don't. Nothing here is treated with anything other than a big dose of respect, however the view I get from social media re livestock seems to be much more directed towards either "the Vegan Argument" or the ethical, environmental aspects.
That's a contrast to cereals and veg, where it seems to be all about the perceived wrongdoings of Monsanto et al and alot of other rubbish along those lines.
Most of it seems far more based on perception and emotion, than the realities of commodity production that has to revolve around monocultures, due to harvesting tech available.
I suppose a large part of this comes back to that paradigm thing, again, as for a long time people believed chems would just keep coming, and monocultures would be sustainable forever as such.

Interesting stuff to consider, I'm pretty glad to have someone like you to discuss it with.

Like you, here SRM is stripped for all bovines.

It does seem here that the slaughter age and weight cutoffs are more about retailer/meat plant convenience than anything else but then, as buyers, is that not their right?

Kiwi Pete · Jul 31, 2019

holwellcourtfarm said:
Like you, here SRM is stripped for all bovines.

It does seem here that the slaughter age and weight cutoffs are more about retailer/meat plant convenience than anything else but then, as buyers, is that not their right?

Now there's a question for the big guns - do buyers reaaally have rights?

Say you want to buy wooden fenceposts that last 80 years...... what does it take to get what you want? Will you actually get what you want?

For their convenience, oversize cattle and all bulls were killed on dayshift, when they had more staff to assist with the job - like keeping their heads from touching the ground, etc - nightshift we only killed prime (heifer and steer, plus the overflow of cull cows)

Henarar · Jul 31, 2019

holwellcourtfarm said:
Rob Havard was talking about his out-wintering yesterday. He's got clay and sand in different parts of the farm and laughed about folk who go there to look then say "Ah, but you're on sand, you couldn't outwinter on our clay" or "You're on clay, you couldn't outwinter on our sand"!

He reckons once you get up to 12 or 13% SOM and have plenty of vegetation on top it carries the cows with very little damage. In the worst weather he bale grazes hay and lets them tread a load in as well.

Not saying your wrong but I would have to see it

Kiwi Pete · Jul 31, 2019

I'd put a few of his FB pictures up on here, but not really sure how I'd feel if someone did the same with mine so I won't.

Seems to run a pretty tight ship, good operator

Poorbuthappy · Jul 31, 2019

holwellcourtfarm said:
Rob Havard was talking about his out-wintering yesterday. He's got clay and sand in different parts of the farm and laughed about folk who go there to look then say "Ah, but you're on sand, you couldn't outwinter on our clay" or "You're on clay, you couldn't outwinter on our sand"!

He reckons once you get up to 12 or 13% SOM and have plenty of vegetation on top it carries the cows with very little damage. In the worst weather he bale grazes hay and lets them tread a load in as well.

I've asked a local engineer to make me a Greg Judy style bale unroller.

Bale Unrollers

Click here if you’d like to get emails when we schedule schools, workshops, sales, and more. We are now making our own Greg Judy Bale Unroller designed to work with a 4-wheeler and do exactly…

greenpasturesfarm.net

Have toyed with tractor unroller in the past but it didn't really tick the right boxes.
Now I'm not concerned about "wasting" grass/ hay I'm happy to give this a go, and hopefully use it to improve some poor areas, as well as extend the grazing season.
In the past I've wrecked various bits of fields feeding in a ring feeder before housing. I'm hoping by continuing the grazing round and feeding like this they can stay out longer, and improve the ground in the process.

Poorbuthappy · Jul 31, 2019

Henarar said:
Not saying your wrong but I would have to see it

I admit to having the same reservations as you, but I'm keen to push the boundaries and see what can be achieved.
Greg Judy says he is on clay, and whilst I know his is a very different climate, in 1 video he says they'd had 3" rain in last day or so and you certainly couldn't tell from the video.

Samcowman · Jul 31, 2019

holwellcourtfarm said:
Rob Havard was talking about his out-wintering yesterday. He's got clay and sand in different parts of the farm and laughed about folk who go there to look then say "Ah, but you're on sand, you couldn't outwinter on our clay" or "You're on clay, you couldn't outwinter on our sand"!

He reckons once you get up to 12 or 13% SOM and have plenty of vegetation on top it carries the cows with very little damage. In the worst weather he bale grazes hay and lets them tread a load in as well.

Have you dried out yet? Laura was still wet when she got home. Sounds like it was a good day.

RushesToo · Jul 31, 2019

Kiwi Pete said:
I'd put a few of his FB pictures up on here, but not really sure how I'd feel if someone did the same with mine so I won't.

Seems to run a pretty tight ship, good operator

If your talking about Rob Harvard, his Facebook page for the farm is open so it is already mostly public.

Phepson Farm | Droitwich

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Kiwi Pete · Jul 31, 2019

RushesToo said:
If your talking about Rob Harvard, his Facebook page for the farm is open so it is already mostly public.

Phepson Farm | Droitwich

Phepson Farm, Droitwich. 313 likes · 24 were here. We look forward to welcoming you here at Phepson Farm, set in peaceful Worcestershire countryside wit

www.facebook.com

Cracker, thanks for that, still have a lot of trouble with pinning stuff from FB elsewhere

Kiwi Pete · Jul 31, 2019

Poorbuthappy said:
I admit to having the same reservations as you, but I'm keen to push the boundaries and see what can be achieved.
Greg Judy says he is on clay, and whilst I know his is a very different climate, in 1 video he says they'd had 3" rain in last day or so and you certainly couldn't tell from the video.

We had about that much overnight

You can tell, but the covers here are pitiful by comparison.

On about a 55 day "round", which is roughly what we'll stick with, until we need to speed up when the soil warms up.

holwellcourtfarm · Jul 31, 2019

Henarar said:
Not saying your wrong but I would have to see it

His "Bale pod" field (sacrifice paddock for winter bale feeding) did show some poaching from last winter but not terrible given that 70 cows and their calves spent, IIRC, 16 weeks in there on 22 acres.

He did say that, in future, he intends giving them 3 weeks worth of bales at a time instead of 3 bales every few days as he thinks it would be less work and less damaging to the soil.

I'd post a photo but by then we were all rather wet so I didn't take any. Agricology did video the whole day to upload to their website.

holwellcourtfarm · Jul 31, 2019

Samcowman said:
Have you dried out yet? Laura was still wet when she got home. Sounds like it was a good day.

Your coat got slightly damp

My T-shirt was almost dry by the things I got home but my trousers and underwear were still soaking and my boys are still drying out now. Worth it though.

Typical bloody England though: 120 miles back, mostly motorway, and it took me 3 1/2 hours

I owe you one.

Poorbuthappy · Jul 31, 2019

holwellcourtfarm said:
His "Bale pod" field (sacrifice paddock for winter bale feeding) did show some poaching from last winter but not terrible given that 70 cows and their calves spent, IIRC, 16 weeks in there on 22 acres.

He did say that, in future, he intends giving them 3 weeks worth of bales at a time instead of 3 bales every few days as he thinks it would be less work and less damaging to the soil.

I'd post a photo but by then we were all rather wet so I didn't take any. Agricology did video the whole day to upload to their website.

Ah think that was the agricology event a mate suggested we went to, but it was booked up?

holwellcourtfarm · Jul 31, 2019

Kiwi Pete said:
I'd put a few of his FB pictures up on here, but not really sure how I'd feel if someone did the same with mine so I won't.

Seems to run a pretty tight ship, good operator

I don't blame him but he made it clear that he's claiming a LOT of subsidies. It wasn't quite as different to what I've seen elsewhere as butIs expected it was very useful to see what a confident HPG practitioner looks for in a pasture and the covers he leaves behind.

A worthwhile day.

Oh, and he reckons he's showing around £300/cow profit before subsidies over his 90 cow herd. Outwintering is his biggest cost advantage even though most of his hay is bought in.

The other interesting idea was his bale grazing of species rich hay from a local wildflower meadow, on an HLS field he is being paid to turn wildflower rich, after having it "gently power harrowed" (my quote not his) to create bare soil for the seeds. Apparently Natural England were a touch concerned about the technique but it worked.

holwellcourtfarm · Jul 31, 2019

Poorbuthappy said:
Ah think that was the agricology event a mate suggested we went to, but it was booked up?

There were folk there from Cornwall and Cumbria.

holwellcourtfarm · Jul 31, 2019

Kiwi Pete said:
Now there's a question for the big guns - do buyers reaaally have rights?

Say you want to buy wooden fenceposts that last 80 years...... what does it take to get what you want? Will you actually get what you want?

For their convenience, oversize cattle and all bulls were killed on dayshift, when they had more staff to assist with the job - like keeping their heads from touching the ground, etc - nightshift we only killed prime (heifer and steer, plus the overflow of cull cows)

I like the yank idea of driving in 4 inch fibreglass self-insulating corner posts. Cheap and easy, should be long lasting.

Henarar · Jul 31, 2019

Poorbuthappy said:
I've asked a local engineer to make me a Greg Judy style bale unroller.

Bale Unrollers

Click here if you’d like to get emails when we schedule schools, workshops, sales, and more. We are now making our own Greg Judy Bale Unroller designed to work with a 4-wheeler and do exactly…

greenpasturesfarm.net

Have toyed with tractor unroller in the past but it didn't really tick the right boxes.
Now I'm not concerned about "wasting" grass/ hay I'm happy to give this a go, and hopefully use it to improve some poor areas, as well as extend the grazing season.
In the past I've wrecked various bits of fields feeding in a ring feeder before housing. I'm hoping by continuing the grazing round and feeding like this they can stay out longer, and improve the ground in the process.

I have one of them to fit on the 3 point linkage, it hydraulically clamps the bale in the same way as the one in the vid and works the same way,
I have never used it I was going to cut it up to make something else but won't now

"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

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