Is there any future in suckler cows ?

czechmate · Jan 26, 2020

Well, we always start out in the spring with good intentions of rotational grazing and actually manage to achieve it for a while...
But when you get 12/14 weeks of fields looking like this each year, it kind of cuts your options

unlacedgecko · Jan 26, 2020

Extreme Optimist said:
True, I have a closed herd. Why not make it easier for them to get back in calf. You have the extra liveweight gain when the calf's FCR is at it's best and then the added bonus of the cow being in calf days and possibly weeks sooner than she otherwise would have been.

You’re breeding in genetics which require extra inputs to perform.

Extreme Optimist · Jan 26, 2020

unlacedgecko said:
You’re breeding in genetics which require extra inputs to perform.

Rubbish!!! The cows and heifers are all home bred, calve all the year round and are fed nothing but forage and if I have a criticism of my own system, it is that the cows are too big and carrying a little too much condition, but I don't think that it's too bad a fault to have.

unlacedgecko · Jan 26, 2020

Extreme Optimist said:
Rubbish!!! The cows and heifers are all home bred, calve all the year round and are fed nothing but forage and if I have a criticism of my own system, it is that the cows are too big and carrying a little too much condition, but I don't think that it's too bad a fault to have.

I thought you said above that you creep calves to help cows get back in calf?

Werzle · Jan 26, 2020

dannewhouse said:
I know ... But the paper work would look better,
I always think it's easier to be straight, then you don't get in a muddle or owt with tags etc

Get an rpa inspection and your right up the creek

Werzle · Jan 26, 2020

unlacedgecko said:
Put a calf collar on each calf, joined by 18” of rope or chain with swivels at each end. Have the trio in a small pen for a day, then a small paddock for a few more days. Observe closely to ensure both calves feeding well.

Once cow has accepted both calves turn them out.

Sod that.

unlacedgecko · Jan 26, 2020

Werzle said:
Sod that.

Why?

Extreme Optimist · Jan 26, 2020

unlacedgecko said:
I thought you said above that you creep calves to help cows get back in calf?

I said that the "added bonus" was that you got tthe cows back in calf more quickly. The small amount of creep that they get is going to have little effect on their genetics, it just takes some of the post calving pressure off them, but that is in addition to taking advantage of the calves FCR when it is at it's best.

Werzle · Jan 26, 2020

unlacedgecko said:
Why?

What happens if cow gets between the calves and tushes them about or lays down with one pinned to the floor. If your going to put two on a cow she needs letting into a pen am and pm with some cake until she takes them but usually after about 3 mths she hasnt got the milk for two and one or both start to stunt

scholland · Jan 26, 2020

Start

Woolless said:
When do you calve to get them gone before second winter?

Start 1st March.
The will be a few that come back in but try very hard to minimise that.
Would rather have them away to average 300kg at 17 month.

Blaithin · Jan 26, 2020

czechmate said:
Well, we always start out in the spring with good intentions of rotational grazing and actually manage to achieve it for a while...
But when you get 12/14 weeks of fields looking like this each year, it kind of cuts your options

View attachment 855226 View attachment 855226

My fields look like some version of this for almost 30 weeks of the year. I can manage a basic rotation fairly easy. I don’t do high density, frequent stuff by any means though.

exmoor dave · Jan 26, 2020

beefandsleep said:
If you have lovely dry ground ideal for outwintering then you are probably short of summer grass when the cows need it to milk.

This exactly

We outwinter on moorland, often find our selves feeding more mid summer than mid winter!

Blaithin · Jan 26, 2020

Werzle said:
What happens if cow gets between the calves and tushes them about or lays down with one pinned to the floor. If your going to put two on a cow she needs letting into a pen am and pm with some cake until she takes them but usually after about 3 mths she hasnt got the milk for two and one or both start to stunt

I’ve never heard of anyone having troubles using a collar. It’s not a large gap between calves.

I have a few cows that feed multiples. Yes the calves don’t weigh as much as the singles but the cows wean way more despite this. I can easily wean 1500-2000lb off one cow with the calves weighing 500 while the singles might be bigger and break 600. 600+ still doesn’t come close to 2000.

Plus if managed right or they fall back they can easily raise another group.

All depends on the cow but there’s lots of options.

nails · Jan 26, 2020

unlacedgecko said:
AA calve easier than Charolais.

Biggest calves i ever saw out of frieisans were Canadian Angus in the 70,s Ruined a good few heifers and cows. Easy calving my arse.

exmoor dave · Jan 26, 2020

Woolless said:
Here's a system advocated by some American suckler producers, with some suggested adaptions. I've flagged this up elsewhere but interested in what the TFF assembled suckler brains trust think:

-Native-bred cows, calving June/July.
-Calves wintered at foot on deferred grazing (could be housed) and weaned on to spring grass.
-Sell as stores before second winter, or if carried over (brassicas? Good silage?) would finish readily on grass.
-Pluses: Potential for a PFLA/no cereals system. Cull cows finished easily at grass when price is generally good. Lean cows put condition on easily in spring.
-Negatives: controlling cow condition before calving? Calves small to sell if you need to get out of them before winter.

Here
Calf outside may/june.
Out winter cows and calves on dry moor, nov- march.
Wean calves when they come in off the moor. Cows go to top fields on silage.
Calves in a shed, possibly some grazing at home, then off to no-imput NT grazing for the summer.
Then housed nov and finished on silage and cake.

Realistically, they'd be best sold as stores rather than 2nd winter housing but due to the TB situation, finishing on farm is the safest option.

Possible treak, wean the calves in January as we gather mid winter for TB testing usually anyway.

nails · Jan 26, 2020

Fendt65 said:
Just sat here and read most of these threads , very interesting views none of us particularily like change but change and adapt is what we have to do.
my personal view is the key is grass its the most under utilised product we have.

Absolutely. If you have strip grazed a Dairy Herd you realise what you can get out of grass.The cheapest feed is good grass and the cheapest for the growing calves is plenty of milk. A milky cow like a Simmental will rear a calf to a very high weaning weight on grass alone but you do have to manage the grazing. Just turning them out and leaning over the gate once a day will work but you won,t get the best out of the grass or the cows.

Agrivator · Jan 26, 2020

Twinning on a second calf is a none starter.

1. It creates extra work.

2. The bought-in calves will be expensive if they have any merit.

3. There is an immense risk of buying in disease.

4. You will normally end up with two poor calves. Even though suckler cows have four teats, they usually make a disappointing job of rearing even their own twins.

The more physical work you have to put into Suckler cows, the more reason there is to do something more worthwhile.

sheepwise · Jan 26, 2020

unlacedgecko said:
AA calve easier than Charolais.

Are you sure?

unlacedgecko · Jan 26, 2020

sheepwise said:
Are you sure?

No

unlacedgecko · Jan 26, 2020

Agrivator said:
Twinning on a second calf is a none starter.

1. It creates extra work.

2. The bought-in calves will be expensive if they have any merit.

3. There is an immense risk of buying in disease.

4. You will normally end up with two poor calves. Even though suckler cows have four teats, they usually make a disappointing job of rearing even their own twins.

The more physical work you have to put into Suckler cows, the more reason there is to do something more worthwhile.

Performance of individual calves doesn’t really matter in isolation. It’s profit per ha that matters.

1. Dog collar method appears fairly low labour.

2. Buy them from the same place as original dairy x heifers.

3. See 2.

4. Dairy cross should produce more than enough milk, as long as the cows are fed right. Pasture management will be key.

Is there any future in suckler cows ?

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100% I’ve had enough of farming!

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