Disappointed by cattle hurdles

If you don't see it, you don't see it. You have made it clear that you just don't understand it. You've obviously not run a VAT registered business or sold [or bought] VATable goods to VAT registered businesses or you would know that they are not interested in the price including VAT and require a legal VAT invoice on goods they buy and supply a VAT invoice with goods they sell. You seem not to even have noticed or wondered why things are marked less VAT with the VAT applied separately on price tags.

A small hint… if I go buy a £40, 000 tractor, the price I will be quoted will be £40,000. Everyone knows that there will be £8000 of VAT added on top and even if on finance the VAT will be payable up front. Even if you are not registered for VAT you will have to pay the VAT, so your net payment will be £48,000. The same applies on a smaller scale, so you buy hurdles worth £400 from an ag merchant and you will be charged £480. If you don't make it clear that you are not VAT registered beforehand, the price quoted will be £400 because the merchant will assume that you will pay the VAT and reclaim it. For business to consumer sales the assumption is that you will not be VAT registered or that the goods will not be eligible for reclaiming the VAT, which is why non-trade outlets have price tags that include VAT. For business to business, which farmers merchants and dealers are, and they are VAT registered, it is assumed that you will know where you stand and quotes will invariably be +VAT. 99.9% of customers know this or, if they forget, accept that the VAT will inevitably be added. There's alway the one though. :rolleyes:

As an aside, in the USA, prices are quoted before tax even in retail shops. Seldom is the sales tax quoted on consumer goods until it is run over the till.
Nope of course in a combined 30 years as a farmer and farrier never bought anything from a vat registered business. Maybe terminology around you is different but around here an all in price, nothing to add, is just that. There's also no guarantee 2 blokes selling on Facebook will be vat registered. To say I've been sussed for not wanting to pay someone unrelated to the transaction is ridiculous. You wouldn't go and buy a car and pay their next door neighbour to save a few quid would you?? It doesn't fill you with trust when someone says do that in between constant sales patter. I am not vat registered. I spent years keeping just below the threshold as that works better for my business so I do not have to charge vat on my services however I do understand how vat works but thanks for the patronising lesson.
 

Highland Mule

Member
Livestock Farmer
Nope of course in a combined 30 years as a farmer and farrier never bought anything from a vat registered business. Maybe terminology around you is different but around here an all in price, nothing to add, is just that. There's also no guarantee 2 blokes selling on Facebook will be vat registered. To say I've been sussed for not wanting to pay someone unrelated to the transaction is ridiculous. You wouldn't go and buy a car and pay their next door neighbour to save a few quid would you?? It doesn't fill you with trust when someone says do that in between constant sales patter. I am not vat registered. I spent years keeping just below the threshold as that works better for my business so I do not have to charge vat on my services however I do understand how vat works but thanks for the patronising lesson.

OT, and no intent to be patronising, but have you considered ring fencing your agricultural enterprise so it can be vat registered? It seems that you’ll have a reasonable amount of vat rated purchases, and if managed correctly there would be minimal to no vat rated sales. Not many working in agriculture would be unregistered, I’d suspect.
 

Cowabunga

Member
Location
Ceredigion,Wales
OT, and no intent to be patronising, but have you considered ring fencing your agricultural enterprise so it can be vat registered? It seems that you’ll have a reasonable amount of vat rated purchases, and if managed correctly there would be minimal to no vat rated sales. Not many working in agriculture would be unregistered, I’d suspect.
Some will be registered on the flat rate scheme. However, if the enterprise is mainly agricultural and not leisure or something, then it is likely that most VAT submissions are for claims rather than payments, in which case the flat rate is unsuitable. In this case the subject seems not to be registered in any way and totally naive as far as to how a business operates when registered, which the vast majority of UK farms will be.
I'm a member of Amazon Prime, for instance. On this I have two Amazon accounts, one domestic and one on Amazon Business. I can swap between them at will by clicking on a provided link. The Business section has the same goods available but everything from VAT registered suppliers, including Amazon itself is listed net of VAT with the VAT inclusive price in small print to its side. For this account they facilitate downloadable VAT invoices. I've taken a screenshot so that those who are not involved in managing a 'business' can easily note how this random selection's price is listed. This is typical of all business to business pricing.

Screenshot 2020-08-21 at 09.56.50.png

It is to be noted that no mention of VAT is made for the drill bits and therefore vendor is either overseas or, just as likely, not VAT registered themselves.
 

2wheels

Member
Location
aberdeenshire
Some will be registered on the flat rate scheme. However, if the enterprise is mainly agricultural and not leisure or something, then it is likely that most VAT submissions are for claims rather than payments, in which case the flat rate is unsuitable. In this case the subject seems not to be registered in any way and totally naive as far as to how a business operates when registered, which the vast majority of UK farms will be.
I'm a member of Amazon Prime, for instance. On this I have two Amazon accounts, one domestic and one on Amazon Business. I can swap between them at will by clicking on a provided link. The Business section has the same goods available but everything from VAT registered suppliers, including Amazon itself is listed net of VAT with the VAT inclusive price in small print to its side. For this account they facilitate downloadable VAT invoices. I've taken a screenshot so that those who are not involved in managing a 'business' can easily note how this random selection's price is listed. This is typical of all business to business pricing.

View attachment 902453
It is to be noted that no mention of VAT is made for the drill bits and therefore vendor is either overseas or, just as likely, not VAT registered themselves.
aye but the funny thing is the likes of screwfix price is including vat which they do state and the must sell to a lot of vat reg business customers as well as private buyers. it's a funny old world and tis always best to ask their terms.
 

Cowabunga

Member
Location
Ceredigion,Wales
aye but the funny thing is the likes of screwfix price is including vat which they do state and the must sell to a lot of vat reg business customers as well as private buyers. it's a funny old world and tis always best to ask their terms.
Yes, I've bought quite a lot of stuff off Screwfix lately, collecting from a 'local' store out of normal hours. They are very busy, or they were every time I was there, which was mostly after 6pm. I would say that at least half the customers queuing to be served were retail rather than trade or business, which probably explains their pricing. They must know their market. VAT invoice is automatically sent to my email, which I like very much. What I do not like is having to deduct the VAT from their price to get my true price before buying.
 

Poorbuthappy

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Devon
Yes, I've bought quite a lot of stuff off Screwfix lately, collecting from a 'local' store out of normal hours. They are very busy, or they were every time I was there, which was mostly after 6pm. I would say that at least half the customers queuing to be served were retail rather than trade or business, which probably explains their pricing. They must know their market. VAT invoice is automatically sent to my email, which I like very much. What I do not like is having to deduct the VAT from their price to get my true price before buying.
You can set their website to show prices with or without vat
 

steveR

Member
Mixed Farmer
If you don't see it, you don't see it. You have made it clear that you just don't understand it. You've obviously not run a VAT registered business or sold [or bought] VATable goods to VAT registered businesses or you would know that they are not interested in the price including VAT and require a legal VAT invoice on goods they buy and supply a VAT invoice with goods they sell. You seem not to even have noticed or wondered why things are marked less VAT with the VAT applied separately on price tags.

One caveat, as I don't know how teh OP sourced his hurdles... eBay vendors are notoriously bad at understanding VAT!! I would not like to think how much some of them scam at times. They are supposed to show prices inclusive of VAT, but it is a lottery...
 

DKnD

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Exmoor
Vat, vat, vat, vat.
Bugger. They is some crap looking hurdles. Don't think the baler twine in me pocket will sort they out.
 

Happy

Member
Location
Scotland
You can set their website to show prices with or without vat

They same to have an odd way of calculating VAT whichever way round though.
Without fail Screwfix invoices are always £0.02 or £0.03 our on VAT when you come to do your Xero accounts and require an adjustment figure entered.
About the only ones I have that consistently are. No big deal, just bloody annoying:rolleyes:
 

Goweresque

Member
Location
North Wilts
They same to have an odd way of calculating VAT whichever way round though.
Without fail Screwfix invoices are always £0.02 or £0.03 our on VAT when you come to do your Xero accounts and require an adjustment figure entered.
About the only ones I have that consistently are. No big deal, just bloody annoying:rolleyes:

Depends whose favour the error is in, Screwfix's or HMRC's. Imagine if they were making a few pence extra profit on every item they sold..............I always find the same on Southern Electric invoices, their vat is often a penny out compared to my spreadsheet. I guess its the result of computers doing calculations and whether they round figures at each stage of the calculation process or not.
 

tepapa

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
North Wales
Depends whose favour the error is in, Screwfix's or HMRC's. Imagine if they were making a few pence extra profit on every item they sold..............I always find the same on Southern Electric invoices, their vat is often a penny out compared to my spreadsheet. I guess its the result of computers doing calculations and whether they round figures at each stage of the calculation process or not.
Screwfix always round down, I suppose to keep price down when competing with tool station. Its a pain in the arse putting invoices on Xero on your phone. Always have to adjust them on the computer.
 

Mur Huwcun

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
North West Wales
If you’re not in a mega hurry you can email keyaccounts@screwfix with your acc number with all item numbers and they’ll return a quote within a few hours with excluding and including vat prices
 

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Red Tractor drops launch of green farming scheme amid anger from farmers

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As reported in Independent


quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

read the TFF thread here: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/gfc-was-to-go-ahead-now-not-going-ahead.405234/
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