Turbines. Another fine mess????

renewablejohn

Member
Location
lancs
So let me get this correct, you scold a forum member for having passed comment on a subject which you say they have no right to do so, but then feel fully qualified to cast aspersions on a whole nation of people?
Who said anything about a whole nation. The comments are specifically about the wind turbine scheme in NI which this thread is supposed to be about. It will probably end up a bigger scandal then the RHI scheme but hey what do I know.
 
Last edited:

DaveGrohl

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Cumbria
Didn’t the NI RHI scheme go belly up because they forgot to cap the usage?

diverting OP still more, I know.
I'm not sure you're diverting it, I'm struggling to understand what the "story" is to start with. Did NI keep the FIT high while the rest of the UK was dropping it over a period of years? That would seem odd and a bit neglectful when they could've been reducing the funding like everyone else.
 

shumungus

Member
Livestock Farmer
Who said anything about a whole nation. The comments are specifically about the wind turbine scheme in NI which this thread is supposed to be about. It will probably end up a bigger scandal then the RHI scheme but hey what do I know.
You did,
Obviously people on here dont understand the brown envelope economy of Northern Ireland.
As someone who has two forms of renewable energy on an owned self sustaining farm I would class myself as having a reasonable understanding of the workings of my local economy. I know nothing of this 'Brown Envelope' or any other colour of envelope economy you speak of, please enlighten me and my fellow country men on this forum as we would like to know. After the RHI fiasco, we as Businessmen/Farmers/Landowners are quite frankly fed up to the back teeth with self appointed experts casting dispersions on us.
After a trial by media, they then spent millions of pounds of tax payers money on a full Governmental judicial enquiry into the RHI matter and it was found there was no crime or fraud committed by any installation, we had all adhered to the rules set out initially by the Government in Whitehall and it had been incredibly badly handled by the politicians and civil servants in Stormont. We stand collectively as business's to lose millions, so come on then explain it to us.
 
You did,

As someone who has two forms of renewable energy on an owned self sustaining farm I would class myself as having a reasonable understanding of the workings of my local economy. I know nothing of this 'Brown Envelope' or any other colour of envelope economy you speak of, please enlighten me and my fellow country men on this forum as we would like to know. After the RHI fiasco, we as Businessmen/Farmers/Landowners are quite frankly fed up to the back teeth with self appointed experts casting dispersions on us.
After a trial by media, they then spent millions of pounds of tax payers money on a full Governmental judicial enquiry into the RHI matter and it was found there was no crime or fraud committed by any installation, we had all adhered to the rules set out initially by the Government in Whitehall and it had been incredibly badly handled by the politicians and civil servants in Stormont. We stand collectively as business's to lose millions, so come on then explain it to us.

commenting on the RHI only, I think as you say folk only followed the rules set by your gov.

but, you all knew it was too good to be true. I recall being on an a stand at a big Ag show and all the enquires came from the Irish asking how long and how many of the biggest boilers they could get their hands to get them installed ASAP. When they were asked about heating requirements they smirked and said they had none.

As you say, from what I understand the gov did a crap job setting it up and didn’t act quick enough in closing down their errors, no doubt causing the genuine to get shafted as well. Still, that’s government for you!
 
I'm not sure you're diverting it, I'm struggling to understand what the "story" is to start with. Did NI keep the FIT high while the rest of the UK was dropping it over a period of years? That would seem odd and a bit neglectful when they could've been reducing the funding like everyone else.
Yes you're correct. The fit or Niro price was not reduced as the scheme filled. No corruption has been found or implied. Simple the fact that the rocs maintained its value to the end. My Scottish friend gets over 21p in fit payments per kw. We get 19.2p for 2020. I don't see a story only abit of greedy farmer bashing
 

DaveGrohl

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Cumbria
Yes you're correct. The fit or Niro price was not reduced as the scheme filled. No corruption has been found or implied. Simple the fact that the rocs maintained its value to the end. My Scottish friend gets over 21p in fit payments per kw. We get 19.2p for 2020. I don't see a story only abit of greedy farmer bashing
Still, you have to wonder what tf the journalist thinks is a crime here? Maybe they'd rather the leccy was generated by say EDF and the money went over the channel rather than go to a farmer in NI who would then spend it in NI? All very baffling.
 
The biggest factor in small generation ie sub 250 was the fact we could use refurbished turbines. A 250 DIY turbine could be ready to put on for 120k ish as opposed to new at 500k. An average site became viable, the pay back quicker. How long for a project to pay itself. 6 to 7 years is too long(my 120k cost does not include base ,commissioning or construction)
 

renewablejohn

Member
Location
lancs
The biggest factor in small generation ie sub 250 was the fact we could use refurbished turbines. A 250 DIY turbine could be ready to put on for 120k ish as opposed to new at 500k. An average site became viable, the pay back quicker. How long for a project to pay itself. 6 to 7 years is too long(my 120k cost does not include base ,commissioning or construction)
Precisely, How many brown envelopes do you think it took to arrive at a refurbished figure of 120k. To give you a clue the salvage person would normally have been paid to dismantle the old turbine as part of the installation of the new replacement turbine head.
 

renewablejohn

Member
Location
lancs
You did,

As someone who has two forms of renewable energy on an owned self sustaining farm I would class myself as having a reasonable understanding of the workings of my local economy. I know nothing of this 'Brown Envelope' or any other colour of envelope economy you speak of, please enlighten me and my fellow country men on this forum as we would like to know. After the RHI fiasco, we as Businessmen/Farmers/Landowners are quite frankly fed up to the back teeth with self appointed experts casting dispersions on us.
After a trial by media, they then spent millions of pounds of tax payers money on a full Governmental judicial enquiry into the RHI matter and it was found there was no crime or fraud committed by any installation, we had all adhered to the rules set out initially by the Government in Whitehall and it had been incredibly badly handled by the politicians and civil servants in Stormont. We stand collectively as business's to lose millions, so come on then explain it to us.

I agree it was stormont that gave the tools to create a very profitable wind industry as outlined below


But it was developers that exploited the loopholes with there scrap wind turbines turning them into the golden goose.
 
I agree it was stormont that gave the tools to create a very profitable wind industry as outlined below


But it was developers that exploited the loopholes with there scrap wind turbines turning them into the golden goose.
Define a scrap turbine.to me it's one which the running costs simply outweigh any financial return
 

renewablejohn

Member
Location
lancs
Define a scrap turbine.to me it's one which the running costs simply outweigh any financial return
These turbines where just obsolete in that the site could upgrade from a 250kw to 1MW or 1.5MW. Most of them received EU subsidy as new turbines. Anywhere else in europe you could not get Fits on 2nd hand equipment but NI made up there own rules which allowed this as part of the "peace dividend". Why it was allowed by the EU I have no idea. Anyway the end result is a lot of people have made a lot of money out of 2nd hand wind turbines.
 

shumungus

Member
Livestock Farmer
These turbines where just obsolete in that the site could upgrade from a 250kw to 1MW or 1.5MW. Most of them received EU subsidy as new turbines. Anywhere else in europe you could not get Fits on 2nd hand equipment but NI made up there own rules which allowed this as part of the "peace dividend". Why it was allowed by the EU I have no idea. Anyway the end result is a lot of people have made a lot of money out of 2nd hand wind turbines.
I buy secondhand Tractors for less money than my neighbours buy new ones, does this put me at an advantage over my neighbour? Should I not be allowed to use them for farming? Should I get less for my produce?
 

Highland Mule

Member
Livestock Farmer
These turbines where just obsolete in that the site could upgrade from a 250kw to 1MW or 1.5MW. Most of them received EU subsidy as new turbines. Anywhere else in europe you could not get Fits on 2nd hand equipment but NI made up there own rules which allowed this as part of the "peace dividend". Why it was allowed by the EU I have no idea. Anyway the end result is a lot of people have made a lot of money out of 2nd hand wind turbines.

What a wonderful and forward thinking idea of NI to reuse and recycle old turbines. Far better for the environment than making new every time, surely? The electrons in my computer certainly don’t care if they were excited by second hand machinery.
 

Exfarmer

Member
Location
Bury St Edmunds
What a wonderful and forward thinking idea of NI to reuse and recycle old turbines. Far better for the environment than making new every time, surely? The electrons in my computer certainly don’t care if they were excited by second hand machinery.
I think the whole point of the generous Green energy subsidies was to create a new industry. which would stand on its feet as there were gradually taken away. Using second hand equipment was never the idea.
 
I think the whole point of the generous Green energy subsidies was to create a new industry. which would stand on its feet as there were gradually taken away. Using second hand equipment was never the idea.
If that's the case the small wind industry ie sub 250 would never of got off the ground. We didnt make the rules,we followed them. Planning,grid connection,ofgem all needed to be passed and paid. Grid alone could cost up to 250k
 

Highland Mule

Member
Livestock Farmer
I think the whole point of the generous Green energy subsidies was to create a new industry. which would stand on its feet as there were gradually taken away. Using second hand equipment was never the idea.

I can't imagine the very few recycled ones made much difference to that though, did they? And they still need servicing, repairs etc., which is an industry in itself. Oh, and the manufacturing industry doesn't seem to survived the reduction in FITs either - are there any sub megawatt turbines being sold these days?
 

renewablejohn

Member
Location
lancs
I buy secondhand Tractors for less money than my neighbours buy new ones, does this put me at an advantage over my neighbour? Should I not be allowed to use them for farming? Should I get less for my produce?
Your missing the point. The EU paid for the original new turbines and UK consumers have paid again for the same turbines which are now secondhand. Anywhere else in UK secondhand turbines have to stand on there own feet with only electric export sales to finance them and no subsidy from consumers. To compare with tractors is rediculous as I dont contribute to your tractor but every NI wind turbine receiving Fits is being subsidised by UK consumers.
 

Llmmm

Member
I think the whole point of the generous Green energy subsidies was to create a new industry. which would stand on its feet as there were gradually taken away. Using second hand equipment was never the idea.
Would any of these schemes wind or otherwise be viable without government support.The chinese must be laughing at us borrowing money to put up turbines while the burn coal
 

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