"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

crashbox

Member
Livestock Farmer
If the cow is grazing does she have to be a 10000l animal to leave the same profit,
Definitely not, but it's what we have! Herd average is 9000 but they vary from 7 to 14k. Feed to yield with outofparlour feeders.

Just started AI to bring consistency to the cows, and smaller stature for grazing.

So the interim challenge is to make grazing work best I can with the cows I have.

We've forgotten about grazing really as ryegrass has been so poor, and not a big grazing platform close to the dairy, but reading books like Clifton Park really got me interested in the potential of new species.
 

awkward

Member
Location
kerry ireland
Definitely not, but it's what we have! Herd average is 9000 but they vary from 7 to 14k. Feed to yield with outofparlour feeders.

Just started AI to bring consistency to the cows, and smaller stature for grazing.

So the interim challenge is to make grazing work best I can with the cows I have.

We've forgotten about grazing really as ryegrass has been so poor, and not a big grazing platform close to the dairy, but reading books like Clifton Park really got me interested in the potential of new species.
Have you done any farm walks, with good grazers, always good to see how folk do things on their platform,
 

crashbox

Member
Livestock Farmer
Have you done any farm walks, with good grazers, always good to see how folk do things on their platform,
Yep but mostly ryegrass leys paddock grazed 21day rotation etc... Doesn't translate to my farm.

A big question is how to do the fencing and water trough access for so many small paddocks.

What size paddock would people typically use for, say 100 cattle on twice a day moves?

Gabe Brown quotes hundreds of thousands of pounds livestock weight per acre but that seems crazy to me for Holstein cattle...! :unsure:
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
we went from hols to hienz 57's, aiming for a spring grazing herd, not the best of moves here, spring grazers and no grass, don't really work, so have put an autumn block, back in. Ayr calving, is not the easiest herd to manage, every cow is 'individual', all different calving dates, a block really does lower your cost of production, and utilises grass much more efficiently, that's your preference. Hols will graze, when they learn there is no buffer feed waiting in the yard, but constituents crash, and they don't really perform, on grass only. Moving now to more b&w, mainly because they are a more persistent cow, jersey 1st cross, is the best, 2nd cross onwards less reliable, so a mixture of fr, frx and frxhol, are the ones for us, av 7000litres at 4.5 fat 3.7 protien, and if we hadn't had to buy fodder, quite profitable. Our spr block are dry, 3weeks to go, till calving, 120 in 5 weeks, so the aut block, all november calving, are nearly all the milk in the tank, are av 30 l/day, at 4.7 fat, 3.5 prot, so at turnout, they will be ready to kick in with grass.
To be honest, if you want to max grass, the cheapest, easiest, and best way, is to sell the ones that calve jan to july, because a hol calving then, on grass will not perform, and you will probably end up, putting a buffer out, and completely miss out the grass bit, because the rest will still wait by the gate, for their ration. If you want to 'knock out' the extreme holstiens, look at UK Sires, on line, they have some very old fr types in there. A lot of grazing type fr bulls, are graded down hols, and if you look at SCI, the majority of the top 100 bulls are hol, and need a buffer to actually produce the index. Good luck.
Just read your last post, again dairy farming has the advantage, strip graze, and back fence, dead easy to adjust the amount of grass needed, ultra flexible. Water is the problem, we actually move the troughs with pallet forks, and blue pipe on top of ground, this year, we are going to try making 'tyre' tanks, from big old tyres, they use them in the USA, so no reason we can't, results will be announced, good or bad.
 
Last edited:

crashbox

Member
Livestock Farmer
we went from hols to hienz 57's, aiming for a spring grazing herd, not the best of moves here, spring grazers and no grass, don't really work, so have put an autumn block, back in. Ayr calving, is not the easiest herd to manage, every cow is 'individual', all different calving dates, a block really does lower your cost of production, and utilises grass much more efficiently, that's your preference. Hols will graze, when they learn there is no buffer feed waiting in the yard, but constituents crash, and they don't really perform, on grass only. Moving now to more b&w, mainly because they are a more persistent cow, jersey 1st cross, is the best, 2nd cross onwards less reliable, so a mixture of fr, frx and frxhol, are the ones for us, av 7000litres at 4.5 fat 3.7 protien, and if we hadn't had to buy fodder, quite profitable. Our spr block are dry, 3weeks to go, till calving, 120 in 5 weeks, so the aut block, all november calving, are nearly all the milk in the tank, are av 30 l/day, at 4.7 fat, 3.5 prot, so at turnout, they will be ready to kick in with grass.
To be honest, if you want to max grass, the cheapest, easiest, and best way, is to sell the ones that calve jan to july, because a hol calving then, on grass will not perform, and you will probably end up, putting a buffer out, and completely miss out the grass bit, because the rest will still wait by the gate, for their ration. If you want to 'knock out' the extreme holstiens, look at UK Sires, on line, they have some very old fr types in there. A lot of grazing type fr bulls, are graded down hols, and if you look at SCI, the majority of the top 100 bulls are hol, and need a buffer to actually produce the index. Good luck.
Just read your last post, again dairy farming has the advantage, strip graze, and back fence, dead easy to adjust the amount of grass needed, ultra flexible. Water is the problem, we actually move the troughs with pallet forks, and blue pipe on top of ground, this year, we are going to try making 'tyre' tanks, from big old tyres, they use them in the USA, so no reason we can't, results will be announced, good or bad.
Great, looking forward to seeing those troughs!
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
I just listened to a guy in Mexico using ultra high density grazing. On his best paddocks he will graze 400 Angus cows on 0.2 hectares for 15 minutes, then rest it for 300 days. 😳
Not sure we could do that over here, 1.2 grazings a year, doesn't seem to be right for our climate, what's his, dry and/or semi arid, with lots of acres, could work. There again, that system, on arid land, should dramatically increase the production from it, if it does, seems waste to me. Savory institute would use that type of treatment, to regenerate arid ground, to bring it back to use, to combat food shortages etc.
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
Sounds good solid advice.

My main worry is I'm all year round calving; kicking out a 10,000+ litre dairy cow in peak lactation, and asking her to eat stemmy grass may be a recipe for disaster...?

So I'm wondering if the solution is split into a highs and lows group, and just do mob grazing for the lows?
It definitely doesn't need to be stemmy grass. It's a fairly popular step for some but there is no law against topping, mowing, or using other stock to deal with the issue.. or making silage etc to keep your grazing in the zone.

Or, you can properly defer a surplus with good grazing observation and techniques, and top your cows up with that after they've had their fill of "nice grass", they have legs
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
I just listened to a guy in Mexico using ultra high density grazing. On his best paddocks he will graze 400 Angus cows on 0.2 hectares for 15 minutes, then rest it for 300 days. 😳
Nice, that's a surefire way to increase landscape function.
If you can't grow a crop of something in 300 days then you have 280 days to see it - the opposite of what @crashbox just said about the 21 day round, which gives you a drought and feed bills every time
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
Had quite a productive day
Screenshot_20210208-015757_Gallery.jpg
20210207_210702.jpg

I even discovered an easier, faster way to tackle pulling concrete posts without any lifting
20210207_211118.jpg

(Slide the loop from the last post directly to the next)
20210207_211138.jpg

and the weight against the post damps out the chain-pulling-tight vibrations, so even these old posts don't crack. (y)

It was 26 in the house by 10am so I needed to get outside, lots of sunblock today and plenty of cider
 

Fenwick

Member
Location
Bretagne France
whatever we think, or say, to the public, it sounds good, the fact that it will throw the whole system into chaos, be unenforceable, doesn't matter, those poor little lambikins won't be abused anymore.
In the 'letters' today, in farmers weekly, how will regenerative ag feed the masses ? and the author goes on to basically say it can't. Citing, growing populations, wouldn't work on his soil (min til), the need to increase animals, to produce the required amount of fym, in contrast to being told to eat less meat, poor management leading to pollution, increased cost of food, and therefor cannot economically survive, by farming re-gen.
Having been deprived of my transport for a few days, been quite happily looking at the mymarid's of info on the net.
And been having a really good pondering session, the first conclusion, wish i could start farming from a young age again, to late for me now, and probably getting to far ahead of son ! The biggest gains of regen/holistic, are in the semi desert areas, the opportunity to increase food production, and peace, in those areas are vast, how you can alter the 'desert' by cattle management, was nearly unbelievable, so that's one gain, reducing the need of those communities on food aid from the richer countries. It's an interesting subject, because regen farming, can be very intensive, looking at joe salatin, how he uses the different 'types' of stock to complement each other, by using one, to capitalise on the previous one, has done, and working it all in a big circle, very impressive, and very profitable, and highly stocked as well. There was an experimental farm, name slips me, growing regen maize, with no fert/spray, against normal maize with 'everything', and beating it on yield. All of us on here, recognise the importance of rotation, which modern ag, inc me, has conveniently forgotten about. Then an article about growing crops, in the desert, using irrigation, which after seeing the regen stuff, didn't really seem right. The big question or test, is can we do it on our farms, reducing imput, but increasing output, i don't know the answer, but i think if we went slowly, and carefully, we probably could, the slow and careful approach, so as not to get a disaster, and write it off, as nuts. Probably the biggest obstacle, it is the complete reversal to what we have been taught, nor do i think that it is a gospel, modern ag, has given us tools to use, whether fert, sprays or machinery, they are good if used sensibly, ideally we would not need them !
So, do you think we could feed the world, with regen ag, views please.

Not only do I think we Can feed thé World with reg AG. I'm not sure we have ànother reasonable choice.
 
Not sure we could do that over here, 1.2 grazings a year, doesn't seem to be right for our climate, what's his, dry and/or semi arid, with lots of acres, could work. There again, that system, on arid land, should dramatically increase the production from it, if it does, seems waste to me. Savory institute would use that type of treatment, to regenerate arid ground, to bring it back to use, to combat food shortages etc.
7000 acres, in the foothills of mountains. 10 inches of rain per year, which comes in 3 months during the summer. He has some fairly fancy water infrastructure: dam up high, gravity fed water troughs, 500,000 litres of water storage. Hasn’t sold a heifer for 7 years and still got too much grass (in the desert). It’s worth a listen
 

Humble Village Farmer

Member
BASE UK Member
Location
Essex
we went from hols to hienz 57's, aiming for a spring grazing herd, not the best of moves here, spring grazers and no grass, don't really work, so have put an autumn block, back in. Ayr calving, is not the easiest herd to manage, every cow is 'individual', all different calving dates, a block really does lower your cost of production, and utilises grass much more efficiently, that's your preference. Hols will graze, when they learn there is no buffer feed waiting in the yard, but constituents crash, and they don't really perform, on grass only. Moving now to more b&w, mainly because they are a more persistent cow, jersey 1st cross, is the best, 2nd cross onwards less reliable, so a mixture of fr, frx and frxhol, are the ones for us, av 7000litres at 4.5 fat 3.7 protien, and if we hadn't had to buy fodder, quite profitable. Our spr block are dry, 3weeks to go, till calving, 120 in 5 weeks, so the aut block, all november calving, are nearly all the milk in the tank, are av 30 l/day, at 4.7 fat, 3.5 prot, so at turnout, they will be ready to kick in with grass.
To be honest, if you want to max grass, the cheapest, easiest, and best way, is to sell the ones that calve jan to july, because a hol calving then, on grass will not perform, and you will probably end up, putting a buffer out, and completely miss out the grass bit, because the rest will still wait by the gate, for their ration. If you want to 'knock out' the extreme holstiens, look at UK Sires, on line, they have some very old fr types in there. A lot of grazing type fr bulls, are graded down hols, and if you look at SCI, the majority of the top 100 bulls are hol, and need a buffer to actually produce the index. Good luck.
Just read your last post, again dairy farming has the advantage, strip graze, and back fence, dead easy to adjust the amount of grass needed, ultra flexible. Water is the problem, we actually move the troughs with pallet forks, and blue pipe on top of ground, this year, we are going to try making 'tyre' tanks, from big old tyres, they use them in the USA, so no reason we can't, results will be announced, good or bad.
Would be interested to know what you are planning to use for the floor of the tank.
 

crashbox

Member
Livestock Farmer
I just listened to a guy in Mexico using ultra high density grazing. On his best paddocks he will graze 400 Angus cows on 0.2 hectares for 15 minutes, then rest it for 300 days. 😳
This hombre likes the tequila :ROFLMAO:
Would be interested to know what you are planning to use for the floor of the tank.
I have thought about these too.

Wet mix concrete in the bottom. Suggest chucking in some fibres (£10 pack does 1m3) to prevent sharing cracking.

The key thing to get right is the service box. Just a floating valve might be fine if you are on a private agri supply but not allowed on mains water systems.
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
Would be interested to know what you are planning to use for the floor of the tank.
cut off 1 sidewall, drill tight hole, to push pipe in, and concrete on a hard base, sounds dead easy, whether it is that simple, time will tell ! Some use postcrete, or readycrete, ram in the centre tightly, and fill trough with water. I have located some large tyres, out the quarries, free, so if it works, with a trial using cement, will do several, and get couple of cube readymix, trial and error. Some of these tyres will hold up to 800 gallons water. We are on our own supply.
 

Humble Village Farmer

Member
BASE UK Member
Location
Essex
cut off 1 sidewall, drill tight hole, to push pipe in, and concrete on a hard base, sounds dead easy, whether it is that simple, time will tell ! Some use postcrete, or readycrete, ram in the centre tightly, and fill trough with water. I have located some large tyres, out the quarries, free, so if it works, with a trial using cement, will do several, and get couple of cube readymix, trial and error. Some of these tyres will hold up to 800 gallons water. We are on our own supply.
I just assumed that you would be using some kind of plate and bolting to the bottom, but that would be expensive and of course the whole point is that you wouldn't need to move them
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
with big troughs costing £350 approx, even if you bolt on a plate, still way cheaper. Those 'instructions' on the net, just use a rammed stone base, sit the tyre on, tamp the concrete well under the 'inner' rim, and that's it. Only seen one example of putting a layer of concrete, actually in the tyre as well. We are trying to find the best way to cut the side wall off, that looks the difficult bit.
 

SFI - What % were you taking out of production?

  • 0 %

    Votes: 80 42.3%
  • Up to 25%

    Votes: 66 34.9%
  • 25-50%

    Votes: 30 15.9%
  • 50-75%

    Votes: 3 1.6%
  • 75-100%

    Votes: 3 1.6%
  • 100% I’ve had enough of farming!

    Votes: 7 3.7%

Red Tractor drops launch of green farming scheme amid anger from farmers

  • 1,294
  • 1
As reported in Independent


quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

read the TFF thread here: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/gfc-was-to-go-ahead-now-not-going-ahead.405234/
Top