Sheep breeding, bit of advice

JohnGalway · Mar 6, 2021

Hi folks,

Having a think here about the future. Currently the flock is half blackface & blackface/cheviot cross ewes. I'm looking to simplify things by running one or the other. Last year I had been thinking of going back to being all blackface. But, when I was picking ewes to put to the ram I noted the cheviot/blackface cross ewes to be in better condition in general without any different treatment. I also notice health issues are 90% in the blackface ewes not the blackface/cheviot cross.

Now I wonder should I breed out the blackface to cheviot/blackface. Then alternate that cross back and forth between a cheviot ram and say a lleyn ram?

I've no idea how that cross would work or whether it's a good or bad idea

If I go too far toward lleyn or cheviot I can just switch out the ram breed that year.

cheviot53 · Mar 6, 2021

Hybrid vigour in the first x showing its potential . I changed sbf & sbf x sw over to hill nch took 10 years to get rid of the horns and fix the white faces , on the same ground and for me the lambing % stayed the same but lambs were more sale able making more money , cast ewes made more and the wool covered the clipping costs and a big saving in water proof trousers / jeans with no horns ( shearers & scanner happier ) and no bruised legs . Give it a go and see you can always go back to bf rams

JohnGalway · Mar 6, 2021

cheviot53 said:
Hybrid vigour in the first x showing its potential . I changed sbf & sbf x sw over to hill nch took 10 years to get rid of the horns and fix the white faces , on the same ground and for me the lambing % stayed the same but lambs were more sale able making more money , cast ewes made more and the wool covered the clipping costs and a big saving in water proof trousers / jeans with no horns ( shearers & scanner happier ) and no bruised legs . Give it a go and see you can always go back to bf rams

I wonder will that vigour continue if I were to cross back and forth

I've probably three areas of concern, first that the idea would work, second vigour, and third that it'll make it easier for me to run one big group which gives everywhere else a rest.

Lol @ the trousers, went in dosing hoggets this week with a small hole in work trousers, came out with only half me trousers!

Bones · Mar 6, 2021

If your thinking of the lleyn, would you give the easycare a go,

JohnGalway · Mar 6, 2021

Bones said:
If your thinking of the lleyn, would you give the easycare a go,

No, I need to keep a reliable fleece brand because unfenced hills

Woolless · Mar 6, 2021

JohnGalway said:
No, I need to keep a reliable fleece brand because unfenced hills

I take it you mean that a coloured mark is applied at some point. What time of year?

exmoorromney · Mar 6, 2021

Woolless said:
I take it you mean that a coloured mark is applied at some point. What time of year?

Put the coloured mark on the head?

JohnGalway · Mar 6, 2021

Woolless said:
I take it you mean that a coloured mark is applied at some point. What time of year?

After shearing in July, refreshed as needed, but they need to be marked year round.

Woolless · Mar 6, 2021

JohnGalway said:
After shearing in July, refreshed as needed, but they need to be marked year round.

July would be fine for shedders. They all be tagged anyway?

JohnGalway · Mar 6, 2021

Woolless said:
July would be fine for shedders. They all be tagged anyway?

My knowledge of shedders is they shed the wool at some point. Therefore they also shed my brand. That won't work here.

Woolless · Mar 6, 2021

JohnGalway said:
My knowledge of shedders is they shed the wool at some point. Therefore they also shed my brand. That won't work here.

Fair enough. I can imagine that wool is a cost to your business rather than a benefit, however.

cheviot53 · Mar 6, 2021

If you don't give it a go then you wont' know if it would work and if not happy then go back to bf , New Zealand composites can have 4 breeds and a large % of vigour is retained . Are you talking about hill northies so equal in hardiness to the bf or park cheviot ( alot in ireland ) which are bigger and need better land

JohnGalway · Mar 6, 2021

cheviot53 said:
If you don't give it a go then you wont' know if it would work and if not happy then go back to bf , New Zealand composites can have 4 breeds and a large % of vigour is retained . Are you talking about hill northies so equal in hardiness to the bf or park cheviot ( alot in ireland ) which are bigger and need better land

No they're Wicklows, big enough sheep but do well enough here so far as I've observed, or at least I'm happy with their condition. Teeth seem to be consistently better also.

JohnGalway · Mar 6, 2021

JohnGalway said:
My knowledge of shedders is they shed the wool at some point. Therefore they also shed my brand. That won't work here.

Oh did I just say that

Paul86 · Mar 7, 2021

JohnGalway said:
No they're Wicklows, big enough sheep but do well enough here so far as I've observed, or at least I'm happy with their condition. Teeth seem to be consistently better also.

Would ya have to buy in your replacement ewe lambs then John as ya wouldn't have the blackface ewes to cross with the cheviot? That would be the biggest disadvantage imo. Use the wicklow here on blackface ewes and I'd have to agree they are a very good ewe.

JohnGalway · Mar 7, 2021

Paul86 said:
Would ya have to buy in your replacement ewe lambs then John as ya wouldn't have the blackface ewes to cross with the cheviot? That would be the biggest disadvantage imo. Use the wicklow here on blackface ewes and I'd have to agree they are a very good ewe.

No, that'd be horribly expensive IMO.

If I were to go ahead, I would be breeding the blackface out of my flock entirely, to cheviot cross, which would then become a sort of lleyn/cheviot cross.

Then the existing and future cheviot cross would go lleyn for a year, then cheviot for a year then alternate like that. So that they don't breed too far towards one or the other.

I'm still wondering if it's a good idea, ie a self sustaining system.

TheRock · Mar 7, 2021

What type of blackface are you working with? Can you not cross in another type of blackface? There will be a bit of hybrid vigour there too. First cross using another type of blackface seems to work well

NZDan · Mar 7, 2021

JohnGalway said:
No, that'd be horribly expensive IMO.

If I were to go ahead, I would be breeding the blackface out of my flock entirely, to cheviot cross, which would then become a sort of lleyn/cheviot cross.

Then the existing and future cheviot cross would go lleyn for a year, then cheviot for a year then alternate like that. So that they don't breed too far towards one or the other.

I'm still wondering if it's a good idea, ie a self sustaining system.

Sounds like a good system. A well organised two or three breed rotational cross breeding system sounds like a good option for you. Two breed could either be Lleyn and Cheviot or SBF and Cheviot, three breed system could involve all three, SBFx to Cheviot rams, Cheviotx to Lleyn rams Lleynx to SBF rams and so on.
Having said that the original idea behind forming composite cattle and sheep was to retain as much of the hybrid vigour as possible without the complexity of a rotational crossbreeding system.

egbert · Mar 7, 2021

JohnGalway said:
Hi folks,

Having a think here about the future. Currently the flock is half blackface & blackface/cheviot cross ewes. I'm looking to simplify things by running one or the other. Last year I had been thinking of going back to being all blackface. But, when I was picking ewes to put to the ram I noted the cheviot/blackface cross ewes to be in better condition in general without any different treatment. I also notice health issues are 90% in the blackface ewes not the blackface/cheviot cross.

Now I wonder should I breed out the blackface to cheviot/blackface. Then alternate that cross back and forth between a cheviot ram and say a lleyn ram?

I've no idea how that cross would work or whether it's a good or bad idea If I go too far toward lleyn or cheviot I can just switch out the ram breed that year.

Stick with what you've got.
Adding Lleyn to your mix with give you multiples....been there, done that. soddin 3s and 4s.
.....and I'm guessing thats not your kind of ground or farming.

I keep both - (old fashioned) blackies and (hill northish) cheviots.
Happily, they're on different ground - sbf on open hill, chevs see more inbye/enclosed.
The cross is an outstanding sheep, I can breed my own 'crossing' tups, and it's a way of weeding out any trait I don't like in sbf
I see your problem, wanting to run one group.

We've dabbled in mule breeding, but the bfl was costing far too much. but it has made me consider ditching the bulk of the pure chev flock, and replace them with crosses from sbf drafts.

Watching with interest....and want to see pics of these wicklows!

gwi1890 · Mar 7, 2021

Woolless said:
July would be fine for shedders. They all be tagged anyway?

If the hills are unfenced and so and so next door gathers them in from my experience working on hill farms without a large branded mark on their sides most people don’t have an idea who owns what regardless of ear notches and tags, most hill flocks would be much more profitable without the wool but the biggest hurdle is being able to brand/mark/pitch sheep.

Sheep breeding, bit of advice

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