Organic farming

Henarar

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Somerset
I have been organic for over 20 years, its not harder than conventional, just different. Sick of infighting between farmers, we are all just doing the best we can and should work together, there are more than enough threats to our industry without us sniping at each other.
It is not necessarily different, a non organic farmer can farm in just the same way as an organic farmer,
I have put this on here before I know someone that went organic for the conversation payment done the five years and then dropped it and it made very little difference to the way he farmed simply because that was the way he farmed.
 

Derrick Hughes

Member
Location
Ceredigion
It is not necessarily different, a non organic farmer can farm in just the same way as an organic farmer,
I have put this on here before I know someone that went organic for the conversation payment done the five years and then dropped it and it made very little difference to the way he farmed simply because that was the way he farmed.
But you can't use the word Organic
ie
"Next lot 200 bales of Organic Hay "
Is it registered?
"No but It's had no fertilizer or sprays"
It's not Organic then
 

upnortheast

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Northumberland
Seems to me the main thing you need to go Organic is plenty of rain. I know a number of folks west of Pennines (50 or 60 inch rain ) doing a good job growing organic grass. Twitter followers will probably have come across JRfromstrickley who gets impressive organic results in South Cumbria,
This side of the hill with a rainfall around 25 inches it is more difficult. One of the main men at Nafferton ( mentioned earlier in this thread ) thought he needed 30% more land to produce the same amount of milk. (That does raise a question about feeding the worlds billions of mouths ? )
Another local farm seems to be struggling to grow sufficient grass, especially mid summer.

Does pee me off when people use organic as an excuse for running a shite hole.
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
Seems to me the main thing you need to go Organic is plenty of rain. I know a number of folks west of Pennines (50 or 60 inch rain ) doing a good job growing organic grass. Twitter followers will probably have come across JRfromstrickley who gets impressive organic results in South Cumbria,
This side of the hill with a rainfall around 25 inches it is more difficult. One of the main men at Nafferton ( mentioned earlier in this thread ) thought he needed 30% more land to produce the same amount of milk. (That does raise a question about feeding the worlds billions of mouths ? )
Another local farm seems to be struggling to grow sufficient grass, especially mid summer.

Does pee me off when people use organic as an excuse for running a shite hole.
Good post

It also says a lot about overproduction IMO

30% is probably how much of what "all farms" produce that's dumped, binned, rejected or spoilt after we have our own losses etc outside our control with weather/death/everything else

and that extra 30% is often just mined from somewhere that runs out one day

We aren't Organic other than we don't use anything, just a better way of doing things suits us... as you say shite holes are out there, and also some pretty burnt-out barren places around because they pretty much ranch sheep on it with the gates all tied back against the fences

that's pretty much a conventional model without putting anything back (not even management) and it definitely isn't good for land nor beast

then I look at our wee place coming out of winter with clean grass and good stock and good stocking rates and know that it does work if you understand how to get everything woken up and working right 🙂
 

Ffermer Bach

Member
Livestock Farmer
Seems to me the main thing you need to go Organic is plenty of rain. I know a number of folks west of Pennines (50 or 60 inch rain ) doing a good job growing organic grass. Twitter followers will probably have come across JRfromstrickley who gets impressive organic results in South Cumbria,
This side of the hill with a rainfall around 25 inches it is more difficult. One of the main men at Nafferton ( mentioned earlier in this thread ) thought he needed 30% more land to produce the same amount of milk. (That does raise a question about feeding the worlds billions of mouths ? )
Another local farm seems to be struggling to grow sufficient grass, especially mid summer.

Does pee me off when people use organic as an excuse for running a shite hole.
as far as feeding the world goes, we waste about 30% of the food produced now loss
 

Grass And Grain

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Yorks
Could anyone tell me about soil association or Scottish organic growers, or similar assurance schemes (the Red Tractor.equivalent).

Where do I find out about it?

Is there a scheme manual?

Thanks.
 

Grass And Grain

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Yorks
Google
OF&G standards manual
or
Soil association standards manual
Thanks Sid.

I seem to think you're dairy, so need RT anyway?

Sorry, I don't quite understand... am I correct in thinking Soil association and OF&G have separate assurance schemes as well as the normal organic standards? So if, for example, you grow organic grain or organic beef, can you supply mills or meat processor without being RT assured? If so, is that just from the organic standards, or is there a separate add-on assurance element?

Maybe not your sector/knowledge.
 

Highland Mule

Member
Livestock Farmer
Thanks Sid.

I seem to think you're dairy, so need RT anyway?

Sorry, I don't quite understand... am I correct in thinking Soil association and OF&G have separate assurance schemes as well as the normal organic standards? So if, for example, you grow organic grain or organic beef, can you supply mills or meat processor without being RT assured? If so, is that just from the organic standards, or is there a separate add-on assurance element?

Maybe not your sector/knowledge.
Why not just ask your customers what they want? That’s the usual way to make a sale.
 

Sid

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
South Molton
Thanks Sid.

I seem to think you're dairy, so need RT anyway?

Sorry, I don't quite understand... am I correct in thinking Soil association and OF&G have separate assurance schemes as well as the normal organic standards? So if, for example, you grow organic grain or organic beef, can you supply mills or meat processor without being RT assured? If so, is that just from the organic standards, or is there a separate add-on assurance element?

Maybe not your sector/knowledge.
Yes being dairy I am held to ransom to be RT.
The UK organic standards are a mirror of the EU ones, but each certifier can tweet their standards as long as the core stays the same. I was SA but now OF&G after a "discussion" with an inspector.

Do you have to be RT for beef and grain? As @Highland Mule says research your market outlets. TBH organic trumps RT on the majority of the criteria , the inspections are done at the same time so it's no great bother...apart from paying the extra 🤬

But it does give the buyer flexibility if part of a carcase isn't wanted as organic at the time.
 

Grass And Grain

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Yorks
Why not just ask your customers what they want? That’s the usual way to make a sale.
They want assurance, but they accept several different schemes, including Soil Association and OF&G assurance schemes. Trying to find out what the standards are for these schemes, but can't find them. Unless they are simply included within the normal organic standards.
 
I'm registered as organic with the soil association and I'm very cynical about so called modern organic farming. Let me say first that real organic farming is in my opinion finding out how to help the land work for itself by finding the grasses, crops and livestock that best suit the land. If you read books by Newman turner or Robert Elliot and his Clifton park system, then these pioneers found ways of making their land work. It has taken me many years and much expense to get onto a positive cycle of production where I feel that the land is improving and giving back more than I am having to provide and I am not having a negative impact on the land by increasing weed banks, reducing nutrient availability, decreasing productivity, etc. Conventional farming allows that pain to be bypassed with a formulaic approach that can produce very good output with the correct application of nutrients and treatments, whether that be crop or animal. My criticism of modern so called organic is that "commercial organic" that sells to the big players is really no different than conventional farming, especially from a livestock perspective, in fact I could argue it's actually worse. I have spoken to the soil association about this and the chap I spoke to agreed with me that a conventional hill sheep or native breed conventional grass fed beef is probably more natural than so called organic from high productivity units. Organic as a philosophy of land management has been hijacked by the commercial sector and most farmers can spot hypocrisy a mile away. I argue that if a consumer could see all the derogations and treatments that a commercial organic farmer had applied then it would be no different than a conventional farmer and in many cases would be worse because the conventional treatments are more effective. The soil association and other bodies don't support the real organic philosophy of farming, they are interested in pushing a left wing agenda and climate change whilst at the same time maximising their monetary gain through commercial organic i.e. to the standard not the philosophy, such that real organic farmers are excluded from the commercial mainstream outlets because they don't adopt the necessary output criteria.
 

SFI - What % were you taking out of production?

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Red Tractor drops launch of green farming scheme amid anger from farmers

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As reported in Independent


quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

read the TFF thread here: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/gfc-was-to-go-ahead-now-not-going-ahead.405234/
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