New combine cost

NLF · Aug 26, 2021

warksfarmer said:
Spot on.

One question though is how are you getting crop into the drum at 8am and 10pm because we can’t get anything to feed in as it just wraps around the header auger and then we just spend time stationary with the reverse header clutch engaged. Admittedly it’s a standard header and not a macdon etc but even the new claas convio doesn’t like it as shown in Olly Blogs video yesterday in spring barley.

Yes, I wondered about that. Right now its gone 9am. The ground is still soaked by a heavy dew. The last few days have been the same. That's not untypical of mid to late August. At 11am yesterday the moisture was >20%. By 2pm it was down to 17%. Then the dew came again at 10pm. These aren't days when a combine and driver can cover 50 hect plus.

I'm intrigued by the relative costs of a combine vs a large drying plant. The combine is 35-40k per annum depreciation, plus some overheads. But that's not all savings as there will be incremental depreciation and costs associated with running one large combine harder. Then there is the capital tied up in the grain plant and the drying costs. Finally there may be some upside from non ag uses for old sheds freed up by the new silos. Lots of moving parts.

Bossfarmer · Aug 26, 2021

NLF said:
Yes, I wondered about that. Right now its gone 9am. The ground is still soaked by a heavy dew. The last few days have been the same. That's not untypical of mid to late August. At 11am yesterday the moisture was >20%. By 2pm it was down to 17%. Then the dew came again at 10pm. These aren't days when a combine and driver can cover 50 hect plus.

I'm intrigued by the relative costs of a combine vs a large drying plant. The combine is 35-40k per annum depreciation, plus some overheads. But that's not all savings as there will be incremental depreciation and costs associated with running one large combine harder. Then there is the capital tied up in the grain plant and the drying costs. Finally there may be some upside from non ag uses for old sheds freed up by the new silos. Lots of moving parts.

Id have said a normal sized combine would be 15k a year depreciation, out of interest how long can you get warranty on them for and what would this cost per year including the dealer servicing?

D14 · Aug 26, 2021

Bossfarmer said:
thats not normal cost though as a 300k one will be a big 35ft rotary? what rough figures for a 25fer? bought 5 years ago for 200k, 150 for it now but 220k for a new one?

Go and get a quote, it is very normal.

D14 · Aug 26, 2021

icanshootwell said:
It's either that or pay tax.

At this moment in time with the loss of BPS I would rather pay the tax and use tax averaging mechanism. Whats a £500,000 combine going to be worth in 5 years time when there is no BPS and ELMS has properly kicked in? My local estate who have in hand farming of 3000 acres have already decided to put 50% into a scheme and not crop it.

glasshouse · Aug 26, 2021

warksfarmer said:
I see very inefficient . You’ve still got a corn cart driver and you’ve still got a combine operator. The ‘combine’ might be cheaper but look how much slower it’s going and how little it’s actually cutting compared to a 35ft proper combine.
Even if there was modern versions of this contraption you still ‘need’ a driver. Clive’s trying to work around labour not machinery so this kind of setup won’t help his quandary.
He probably needs 2 or 3 contractors that will cut and cart so his staff can be in the yard putting the grain into the sheds whether directly or via the drier. 3 contractors cutting on the same day would see in excess of 200ac harvested assuming they are all running machines cutting 70 ish ac per day.

You are only talking about labour efficiency.
What about financial efficiency?
Perhsps if land was declining back to £1000 per acre then spending half a mill on the shiniest ridiculous toy wont be quite so attractive.
For the smaller farmer a modernised trailed combine would make a lot of sense.
Kidd saw that 30yr ago but kv shut it down

glasshouse · Aug 26, 2021

simonk88 said:
Why would you think that? Do we need two combines? No, so there isn't any reason to have two. We are lucky with large fields, 250-300ha cropping blocks that are by and large all accessible with the header on. The grain storage was centralised 20 years ago and has been updated with a new dryer that is capable of far more than the combine. The dryer is expensive, but not as much as a second combine and the combine only works a few weeks a year, the dryer can do contract work 12 months of the year. My point was capital investment sometimes isn't about the biggest shiniest largest machine fleet but what part of the operation the capital expenditure will realise the most value. If Clive had a contractor come in the knowledge that up to 22% he can deal with the grain however fast it comes, wouldn't that be more attractive than trying to get wet grain into outdated small stores with large machinery?

My store could tip three artics simultsneously and load out twenty in an afternoon
Neither old nor outdated

NLF · Aug 26, 2021

Bossfarmer said:
Id have said a normal sized combine would be 15k a year depreciation, out of interest how long can you get warranty on them for and what would this cost per year including the dealer servicing?

I guessed that figure, but last time we changed a combine it was 32k per annum over four years. From memory that was the same machine (or updated equivalent model) but going from a 35 to 40ft header. That was about £27 per hect depreciation if I've got my sums right.

Clive · Aug 26, 2021

glasshouse said:
You need to hire a scottish combine for exclusive use till 1st sept

think APH and Claas both tried to get such schemes going

glasshouse · Aug 26, 2021

Clive said:
think APH and Claas both tried to get such schemes going

No, you need a scottish driver with it
He will put a hammer through your moisture meter!!

Clive · Aug 26, 2021

simonk88 said:
Why would you think that? Do we need two combines? No, so there isn't any reason to have two. We are lucky with large fields, 250-300ha cropping blocks that are by and large all accessible with the header on. The grain storage was centralised 20 years ago and has been updated with a new dryer that is capable of far more than the combine. The dryer is expensive, but not as much as a second combine and the combine only works a few weeks a year, the dryer can do contract work 12 months of the year. My point was capital investment sometimes isn't about the biggest shiniest largest machine fleet but what part of the operation the capital expenditure will realise the most value. If Clive had a contractor come in the knowledge that up to 22% he can deal with the grain however fast it comes, wouldn't that be more attractive than trying to get wet grain into outdated small stores with large machinery?

We could cope with servals thousand t a day dry and up to about 800 wet (20%.Ish). No problem

this is one of the attractive arguments of a contractor (s). I could have serveral working at the sand time and get harvest done faster than we ever could done our self. Eggs not all in one basket either as they are now, if a single machine breaks (your own or a contractor) nothing is getting cut ! Our full time staff would fill store and be able to sit tight behind combines drilling cover crops /. Osr etc

I’m not saying it IS the solution or way we will go howver - I just said we are exploring EVERY option without emotion or pre conceptions as any good business should do when making 500k plus decisions on machinery or employing additional staff

tullah · Aug 26, 2021

The thing is running a new 250k machine must give a huge annual depreciation cost per acre and when they go wrong I imagine it's a pricey repair too. Therefore substituting that with a contractor won't make much difference to his operating costs.
On the other hand a smaller farmer running a 7k machine on say 200 acres won't have any depreciation but just repairs. I would imagine the smaller farmers combining per acre costs are way less than the 1000 acre man. Same goes for tractors, drills and sprayers.
So is there such a thing as economy of scale any longer?

warksfarmer · Aug 26, 2021

Al R said:
You’ve never seen crimp done then?
I used to start cutting by 9am and that would be on 19-22% wheat, it was being dried anyway and it was amazing the amount that you got through before mid day when others would start and they’d still have to dry theirs anyway.
Barley and Oats are both nightmares for wrapping though but wheat doesn’t slow you own much.

Wheats terrible at wrapping here - always has been

warksfarmer · Aug 26, 2021

tullah said:
The thing is running a new 250k machine must give a huge annual depreciation cost per acre and when they go wrong I imagine it's a pricey repair too. Therefore substituting that with a contractor won't make much difference to his operating costs.
On the other hand a smaller farmer running a 7k machine on say 200 acres won't have any depreciation but just repairs. I would imagine the smaller farmers combining per acre costs are way less than the 1000 acre man. Same goes for tractors, drills and sprayers.
So is there such a thing as economy of scale any longer?

Lot to be said for that. With the increasing price of equipment it pushes for more land farmer per unit. It’s a very vicious circle that only a small handful don’t play ball, such as P X Farms who seems to run older well depreciated equipment.

Renaultman · Aug 26, 2021

tullah said:
The thing is running a new 250k machine must give a huge annual depreciation cost per acre and when they go wrong I imagine it's a pricey repair too. Therefore substituting that with a contractor won't make much difference to his operating costs.
On the other hand a smaller farmer running a 7k machine on say 200 acres won't have any depreciation but just repairs. I would imagine the smaller farmers combining per acre costs are way less than the 1000 acre man. Same goes for tractors, drills and sprayers.
So is there such a thing as economy of scale any longer?

Good point, you get to a stage where things hardy depreciate at all, in fact they often appreciate, but the gap between them and their replacement rarely does.

Daniel · Aug 26, 2021

warksfarmer said:
Lot to be said for that. With the increasing price of equipment it pushes for more land farmer per unit. It’s a very vicious circle that only a small handful don’t play ball, such as P X Farms who seems to run older well depreciated equipment.

?!

PX bought a self propelled spud harvester, planter and grader, ran it for 2 years and then sold it. They’ve now got out of growing beet as well. I can’t imagine their depreciation bill has looked too clever over the last few years.

Al R · Aug 26, 2021

Daniel said:
?!

PX bought a self propelled spud harvester, planter and grader, ran it for 2 years and then sold it. They’ve now got out of growing beet as well. I can’t imagine their depreciation bill has looked too clever over the last few years.

That planter must have been mega money in itself! 8 row wasn’t it?

Daniel · Aug 26, 2021

Al R said:
That planter must have been mega money in itself! 8 row wasn’t it?

With a tramlining function?

warksfarmer · Aug 26, 2021

Daniel said:
?!

PX bought a self propelled spud harvester, planter and grader, ran it for 2 years and then sold it. They’ve now got out of growing beet as well. I can’t imagine their depreciation bill has looked too clever over the last few years.

I believe it was all used stuff they bought so it wouldn’t be as bad a new.

Flat 10 · Aug 26, 2021

warksfarmer said:
I believe it was all used stuff they bought so it wouldn’t be as bad a new.

I thought there was an article in the farming press about it being bespoke made for them…..
I’ve also read about their new 30m set of rolls…..
I can’t see how he can run much well depreciated on that scale

SilliamWhale · Aug 26, 2021

Flat 10 said:
I thought there was an article in the farming press about it being bespoke made for them…..
I’ve also read about their new 30m set of rolls…..
I can’t see how he can run much well depreciated on that scale

Think I read an article lately about them using controlled traffic ploughing which seem possibly one of farming's crazier inventions

New combine cost

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Up to 25%

25-50%

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75-100%

100% I’ve had enough of farming!

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