Switch to organic farming causes chaos in Sri Lanka

Extreme Optimist · Sep 8, 2021

Treg said:
I agree with that, so is the actual question we need to be asking, can the planet sustain the present population, as in are we destroying the planet to sustain one species?

You have hit the nail on the head, unfortunately I am not sure any politician will raise his/her head above the parapet and be prepared to bring the subject up and how to tackle it. We all know that for the sake of a healthy population, a cull is often needed - too many dear, cull. Too many rabbits, cull. Too many seals, cull. Too many badgers...........
If one population exceeds capacity, it will self destruct and lack of food, diseases, viruses etc will limit/destroy that population. It doesn't do for any species to thrive at the exclusion of all else.
Who's going to suggest a human cull?

betweenthelines · Sep 8, 2021

In a World where millions are starving is it morally acceptable to deliberately restrict the productivity of farm land?

Or should we strive to produce as much food as possible using the tools that science has provided?

Exfarmer · Sep 8, 2021

Treg said:
I don't think any of us can ignore the effects of a ballooning population...certainly can't think of a positive one.
So the consensus on this thread is Artificial Nitrogen was developed so the world population has been able to grow rapidly because of the extra food? But we're consuming the planet at a faster rate than anytime throughout history?
OK can anyone explain why Organic is bad

Ammonium nitrate, was actually developed for the arms industry and managed to obliterate a few millions in the next few years. How soon they learnt of its potential for food production I am not sure.
It waa only after the development of the North Sea oil and gas fields they needed to find markets for the gas in particular , ICI offered to build a very large plant at Immingham to produce AN . This guaranteed market kicked off the ability for the government here to borrow the money needed , then they had to find a market for the AN only so much the army could use.

teslacoils · Sep 8, 2021

betweenthelines said:
In a World where millions are starving is it morally acceptable to deliberately restrict the productivity of farm land?

Or should we strive to produce as much food as possible using the tools that science has provided?

It's morally unacceptable to produce more food than the world needs, yet have folk starving on one continent while those in another die from disease caused principally by gluttony and sloth, despite throwing a lot away.

Treg · Sep 8, 2021

betweenthelines said:
In a World where millions are starving is it morally acceptable to deliberately restrict the productivity of farm land?

Or should we strive to produce as much food as possible using the tools that science has provided?

Or should we be protecting the soil & wider environment for future generations

Hjcarter · Sep 8, 2021

teslacoils said:
It's morally unacceptable to produce more food than the world needs, yet have folk starving on one continent while those in another die from disease caused principally by gluttony and sloth, despite throwing a lot away.

Turn that on its head...

Is it morally acceptable for human kind to produce more people than the planet can feed in a sustainable way....

No specific view, just asking...

Lowland1 · Sep 8, 2021

Extreme Optimist said:
You have hit the nail on the head, unfortunately I am not sure any politician will raise his/her head above the parapet and be prepared to bring the subject up and how to tackle it. We all know that for the sake of a healthy population, a cull is often needed - too many dear, cull. Too many rabbits, cull. Too many seals, cull. Too many badgers...........
If one population exceeds capacity, it will self destruct and lack of food, diseases, viruses etc will limit/destroy that population. It doesn't do for any species to thrive at the exclusion of all else.
Who's going to suggest a human cull?

Covid was a perfect chance for a bit of natural selection. Knocking off some of the largest consumers of the world’s resources wouldn’t have been a bad thing. But no we can’t allow that we have to protect these people apparently.

Hjcarter said:
Turn that on its head...

Is it morally acceptable for human kind to produce more people than the planet can feed in a sustainable way....

No specific view, just asking...

Here in Africa food production is pretty sustainable most people have a bit of land they dig and live off. Generally there’s plenty of food just not much money to buy it. There’s a lot more children per family here however they will use much less resources than even those countries in the developed world with declining birth rates. An Increasing population in not necessarily a bad thing if people don’t consume as they do in the west.

teslacoils · Sep 8, 2021

Hjcarter said:
Turn that on its head...

Is it morally acceptable for human kind to produce more people than the planet can feed in a sustainable way....

No specific view, just asking...

I'm yet to be convinced that "conventional" agriculture is not able to be sustained.

I've no specific view on population growth. I do have a negative view on folk dying through lack of food while other die due to excess food. It saddens me that countries which do suffer from a range of nutritional issues are also the recipients of our "recycling". So their young can go hungry while picking over mountains of our food packaging waste.

Could all be media hype. I leave stuff like this to the politicians and just try to make a living.

teslacoils · Sep 8, 2021

The carbon footprint of those in countries who suffer from famines aren't exactly very large.

Cowabunga · Sep 8, 2021

Extreme Optimist said:
You have hit the nail on the head, unfortunately I am not sure any politician will raise his/her head above the parapet and be prepared to bring the subject up and how to tackle it. We all know that for the sake of a healthy population, a cull is often needed - too many dear, cull. Too many rabbits, cull. Too many seals, cull. Too many badgers...........
If one population exceeds capacity, it will self destruct and lack of food, diseases, viruses etc will limit/destroy that population. It doesn't do for any species to thrive at the exclusion of all else.
Who's going to suggest a human cull?

Well then, a cull isn't that simple. Or it might be simple but the results might not be as you think. The UK has just had a slight cull of foreign workers and look where that has left us. No people to harvest labour intensive crops. No drivers to transport them. No staff at laundries that service hospitals, old people's homes and hotels. Shortage of slaughterhouse workers. A severely impacted economy that will translate to everyone being poorer with less services and great delays in the supply of many goods. Less demand for food leading ultimately almost certainly to lower farmgate prices etc etc.

It will be a field day for religious cranks quite soon, with them revelling in doomsday predictions. It seems to me that some extreme optimists are already depressed and have been converted into being extreme pessimists.
In actual fact there are massive areas of the world that can potentially grow more food. If everyone was forced to go organic there wouldn't be enough labour to grow it and all the current under-utilised land would need to be populated partly with animals and put back into arable production. At the end of the day it would have to be financially viable of course, unless farms were collectivised and labour from towns and admin jobs were forced to work the land, rather like happened in China and Russia many years ago. A cultural revolution. That worked well didn't it.

Pieces_of_Eight · Sep 8, 2021

Treg said:
Organic is what we had before we " thought" we knew better

Organic isn't going to feed the world.

Crop failures and famines were not uncommon throughout what is now the developed world. Thanks to modern agriculture we now have the security of having more food then we know what to do with.

Kiwi Pete · Sep 8, 2021

On the subject of limitless food and drinking water being the best answer...

Behavioral sink - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Sid · Sep 8, 2021

betweenthelines said:
In a World where millions are starving is it morally acceptable to deliberately restrict the productivity of farm land?

Or should we strive to produce as much food as possible using the tools that science has provided?

Is it morally acceptable for people to consume excess or throw away calories.
There are an excess of calories grown on this planet.

This science has causing global warming and more frequent weather events that mean we have to produce more food to compensate for the losses.

Treg said:
Or should we be protecting the soil & wider environment for future generations

Science will sort this

Henarar · Sep 8, 2021

Highland Mule said:
I'm carbon negative already, as most hill livestock farms will be, although my productivity per acre is probably lacking compared to the arable farmers.

bet you produce far more lamb than they do

Henarar · Sep 8, 2021

Kiwi Pete said:
On the subject of limitless food and drinking water being the best answer...

Behavioral sink - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

seems the answer is just a matter of time

Extreme Optimist · Sep 8, 2021

Cowabunga said:
Well then, a cull isn't that simple. Or it might be simple but the results might not be as you think. The UK has just had a slight cull of foreign workers and look where that has left us. No people to harvest labour intensive crops. No drivers to transport them. No staff at laundries that service hospitals, old people's homes and hotels. Shortage of slaughterhouse workers. A severely impacted economy that will translate to everyone being poorer with less services and great delays in the supply of many goods. Less demand for food leading ultimately almost certainly to lower farmgate prices etc etc.

It will be a field day for religious cranks quite soon, with them revelling in doomsday predictions. It seems to me that some extreme optimists are already depressed and have been converted into being extreme pessimists.
In actual fact there are massive areas of the world that can potentially grow more food. If everyone was forced to go organic there wouldn't be enough labour to grow it and all the current under-utilised land would need to be populated partly with animals and put back into arable production. At the end of the day it would have to be financially viable of course, unless farms were collectivised and labour from towns and admin jobs were forced to work the land, rather like happened in China and Russia many years ago. A cultural revolution. That worked well didn't it.

I agree....in parts. A hypothetical cull would not be simple. no good taking out the young or restricting births as not enough people of working age to pay taxes to pay the pensions and health care of the elderly (that hardly worked well in China). Culling the elderly wouldn't work either as they are not the ones having the kids. I don't pretend to have the answer but don't feel current population growth is sustainable. We have completely lost "Survival of the Fittest" and I am not sure this a good thing.

I would suggest that I am a realist but did have a little chuckle at being called a pessimist by the most pessimistic contributor to TFF!!!

Cowabunga · Sep 8, 2021

Extreme Optimist said:
I agree....in parts. A hypothetical cull would not be simple. no good taking out the young or restricting births as not enough people of working age to pay taxes to pay the pensions and health care of the elderly (that hardly worked well in China). Culling the elderly wouldn't work either as they are not the ones having the kids. I don't pretend to have the answer but don't feel current population growth is sustainable. We have completely lost "Survival of the Fittest" and I am not sure this a good thing.

I would suggest that I am a realist but did have a little chuckle at being called a pessimist by the most pessimistic contributor to TFF!!!

Current population growth outside Africa is a myth. Most of the Western World has a negative population rate. Just look at the UK now that many of the migrant workers have gone home.

I advise you to watch this demo by the late great Hans Rosling

Extreme Optimist · Sep 8, 2021

Cowabunga said:
Current population growth outside Africa is a myth.

Really??? UK population was 50 million in 1950. It is 68 million now and UN projections are for it to hit 80 million in 2100. That certainly looks like growth to me!!

Y Fan Wen · Sep 8, 2021

Cowabunga said:
It will be a field day for religious cranks quite soon, with them revelling in doomsday predictions. It seems to me that some extreme optimists are already depressed and have been converted into being extreme pessimists.
In actual fact there are massive areas of the world that can potentially grow more food. If everyone was forced to go organic there wouldn't be enough labour to grow it and all the current under-utilised land would need to be populated partly with animals and put back into arable production. At the end of the day it would have to be financially viable of course, unless farms were collectivised and labour from towns and admin jobs were forced to work the land, rather like happened in China and Russia many years ago. A cultural revolution. That worked well didn't it.

Born to a prosperous farmer in Prek Sbauv, French Cambodia, Pol Pot was educated at some of Cambodia's most elite schools. While in Paris during the 1940s, he joined the French Communist Party

Pol Pot transformed Cambodia into a one-party state called Democratic Kampuchea. Seeking to create an agrarian socialist society that he believed would evolve into a communist society, Pol Pot's government forcibly relocated the urban population to the countryside to work on collective farms. Pursuing complete egalitarianism, money was abolished and all citizens were made to wear the same black clothing.

Pol Pot was a driving force behind the Cambodian genocide, the systematic persecution and killing of Cambodians that the Khmer Rouge regarded as enemies. The genocide, coupled with malnutrition and poor medical care, killed between 1.5 and 2 million people, approximately a quarter of Cambodia's population.

Ffermer Bach · Sep 8, 2021

manhill said:
Almost a religion!

I would say organic farming is the only media campaign that the public outside farming know and recognise, so organic farming is a success in that respect. How many people know what the red tractor means or RSPCA freedom foods?

Switch to organic farming causes chaos in Sri Lanka

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Up to 25%

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100% I’ve had enough of farming!

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