"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

Woolless · Sep 11, 2021

holwellcourtfarm said:
Taken just now of the worst bit of the field, had around 75 days rest so far:

View attachment 985092

This is today's cell:

View attachment 985093

Not brilliant but not bad considering it's a 7 year old "3 year ley" that has had no bagged fertiliser this year and only 40kg/ha ammonium sulphate for each of the previous 2 years. This is only the second graze of the year though. Hardly a good viable business model, especially if paying £200/acre rent, but adequate for what we need right now.

Yes, funny how some bits just don't grow. The field in my pic above was grazed by sheep right through April set-stocked over lambing. Cows started on it mid-June after 42 days rest and it's taken 90 days to get back there. I think this will be the last time the cattle will be on it this year, as it tends to lie wet in places. Sheep might tidy it up if it bounces back well.

Kiwi Pete · Sep 12, 2021

Woolless said:
Yes, funny how some bits just don't grow. The field in my pic above was grazed by sheep right through April set-stocked over lambing. Cows started on it mid-June after 42 days rest and it's taken 90 days to get back there. I think this will be the last time the cattle will be on it this year, as it tends to lie wet in places. Sheep might tidy it up if it bounces back well.

We have a lot of area that would just go to moss if we let it. We'll attempt to "setaside" the cells like that a couple of times a year and just see if we can't set them right, although putting an inch of compost on fixed some of it

som farmer · Sep 12, 2021

the plantains are now coming out in bulk, with the chicory. But how much N is this sward putting back into the ground, or how much N can we save ? That is pic one.
Second pic, of some nice docks, these came from digging a base for a track, this was the soil spread from that track, thinking there must be centuries worth of dock seeds, in the natural seed bank, definitely a losing battle.
The bottom 2 are where the rotation has crept a bit to long, plus it's some ground that has had a lot of dirty water spread, and cattle never to keen to clear it there, doesn't show the nice blue flowers, of chicory, very well though, and a lot of it is 2ft high.
Carrying on from musings, we are over drilling a lot of clover, red and white, where there isn't much, clovers are really like a 'super plant', providing natural N, and protien.
Whether it's just slower affecting the chicory, that has not 'curled' up from the spray, which is a clover safe one, now withdrawn, but if it doesn't affect the herb, that seriously opens up an important tool, l will monitor, and report!

ShooTa · Sep 12, 2021

its alright chaps - we can buy a regenerative grass seed..

New regenerative grass seed Estate Range launched

New regenerative grass seed Estate Range launched A new regenerative Estate Range of grass seed has been launched to the market by Lincolnshire-based seed specialist Cope Seeds and Grain. Launched to complement integrated farming systems, the range will enable landowners to reduce input...

thefarmingforum.co.uk

Guleesh · Sep 12, 2021

Kiwi Pete said:
We have a lot of area that would just go to moss if we let it. We'll attempt to "setaside" the cells like that a couple of times a year and just see if we can't set them right, although putting an inch of compost on fixed some of it

Patches like that, and watching them grow in area every year is the reason we started doing things differently here. We put an inch of compost on a little patch too, with great success, but just not feasible for the big areas. We used one patch as a sacrifice paddock to feed leaner ewes some hay and concentrate in winter, some bits we've run the chickens over a few times and we even dumped a load of cut tree branches on one really bad bit and left them to rot in situ.

All have improved things, admittedly only a little bit at a time. But each bit only needs helped once, then we move on and concentrate on the next worst bit. We find if we can just give a small boost to begin with then a year or two of simple hard impact grazing with plenty trampling followed by very long spring and summertime rests will quickly bring the soil back to life and these bits bounce back into production. The problem we had here on some areas was getting anything at all growing in the first place that was big enough to be grazed or trampled.

It all takes patience though. It seems to take 3-5 years to turn a really poor piece of ground around, that is, without spending anything on it other than a bit of time.

Kiwi Pete · Sep 12, 2021

Guleesh said:
Patches like that, and watching them grow in area every year is the reason we started doing things differently here. We put an inch of compost on a little patch too, with great success, but just not feasible for the big areas. We used one patch as a sacrifice paddock to feed leaner ewes some hay and concentrate in winter, some bits we've run the chickens over a few times and we even dumped a load of cut tree branches on one really bad bit and left them to rot in situ.

All have improved things, admittedly only a little bit at a time. But each bit only needs helped once, then we move on and concentrate on the next worst bit. We find if we can just give a small boost to begin with then a year or two of simple hard impact grazing with plenty trampling followed by very long spring and summertime rests will quickly bring the soil back to life and these bits bounce back into production. The problem we had here on some areas was getting anything at all growing in the first place that was big enough to be grazed or trampled.

It all takes patience though. It seems to take 3-5 years to turn a really poor piece of ground around, that is, without spending anything on it other than a bit of time.

Have you looked into biodynamic preps?

Always a tricky subject to broach.... but it works here, I would say it's like the fertiliser you use when you don't use fertiliser, IYSWIM

Kiwi Pete · Sep 12, 2021

ShooTa said:
its alright chaps - we can buy a regenerative grass seed..

New regenerative grass seed Estate Range launched

New regenerative grass seed Estate Range launched A new regenerative Estate Range of grass seed has been launched to the market by Lincolnshire-based seed specialist Cope Seeds and Grain. Launched to complement integrated farming systems, the range will enable landowners to reduce input...

thefarmingforum.co.uk

I like that it would reduce my input costs, could use a bit of seed that would pay some interest on the loan..... or maybe insurance?

Jonny B88 · Sep 12, 2021

som farmer said:
the plantains are now coming out in bulk, with the chicory. But how much N is this sward putting back into the ground, or how much N can we save ? That is pic one.
Second pic, of some nice docks, these came from digging a base for a track, this was the soil spread from that track, thinking there must be centuries worth of dock seeds, in the natural seed bank, definitely a losing battle.
The bottom 2 are where the rotation has crept a bit to long, plus it's some ground that has had a lot of dirty water spread, and cattle never to keen to clear it there, doesn't show the nice blue flowers, of chicory, very well though, and a lot of it is 2ft high.
Carrying on from musings, we are over drilling a lot of clover, red and white, where there isn't much, clovers are really like a 'super plant', providing natural N, and protien.
Whether it's just slower affecting the chicory, that has not 'curled' up from the spray, which is a clover safe one, now withdrawn, but if it doesn't affect the herb, that seriously opens up an important tool, l will monitor, and report!View attachment 985196 View attachment 985203 View attachment 985204 View attachment 985205

Not the first person to mention to me about dirty water spreading affecting cattle intakes and general contentment. The sludgeagator has a lot to defend for people over the years when they use it.

Guleesh · Sep 12, 2021

Kiwi Pete said:
Have you looked into biodynamic preps?

Always a tricky subject to broach.... but it works here, I would say it's like the fertiliser you use when you don't use fertiliser, IYSWIM

I can't say I have really looked, something I perhaps should investigate further. A large part of our problem is the anaerobic conditions and the acidity that comes with the moss. I think the compost worked well because it kept the grass sown into it alive long enough for it to root through the moss peat formation and allow aerobic conditions to break down the mat, the soil underneath is hard pan by now of course, but roots can slowly work away at that over the next few decades.

I'm not sure any amendment would work without removing at least some of the moss first, and already having some more useful plants to benefit from it, it would just be preserved into the mat. There's only a couple of months that moss here isn't like a wet sponge, it holds 100% water for well over half the year.

That's part of why it degenerates so fast with set stocked sheep, they don't want to lie on wet moss so these bit never see much manure.

Kiwi Pete · Sep 12, 2021

Guleesh said:
I can't say I have really looked, something I perhaps should investigate further. A large part of our problem is the anaerobic conditions and the acidity that comes with the moss. I think the compost worked well because it kept the grass sown into it alive long enough for it to root through the moss peat formation and allow aerobic conditions to break down the mat, the soil underneath is hard pan by now of course, but roots can slowly work away at that over the next few decades.

I'm not sure any amendment would work without removing at least some of the moss first, and already having some more useful plants to benefit from it, it would just be preserved into the mat. There's only a couple of months that moss here isn't like a wet sponge, it holds 100% water for well over half the year.

That's part of why it degenerates so fast with set stocked sheep, they don't want to lie on wet moss so these bit never see much manure.

Bloody difficult to get "air" past "moss"

I think it can rapidly snowball, anaerobic conditions produce alcoholic byproducts that rapidly shift pH, isn't that one of the great benefits of UHD grazing though, in that you can really beat up on it

Guleesh · Sep 12, 2021

I've borrowed my wife's camera for half an hour.

First is April last year and then today, after some lambs grazed it for the day on Thursday. I know one is winter and one is summer, and obviously there's still a long way to go, but I'm delighted as there's been a little trampling, a bit of manuring and they've built a little cover, provided I don't graze it off and this cover stays on for long enough into winter I doubt the moss will get much of a start again. I'll try and remember to get another photo In April, hopefully see some big differences.

More chickens are what I really want though....

Believe it or not this was last grazed in May and where the chickens are heading onto.

This is a few yards away where we are today, also grazed in May.

This is where they were at the end of June, also last grazed in May

Before and after chickens.

som farmer · Sep 12, 2021

Jonny B88 said:
Not the first person to mention to me about dirty water spreading affecting cattle intakes and general contentment. The sludgeagator has a lot to defend for people over the years when they use it.

they are now talking about having to put a meter in line, and justify crop need. If they carry on with these ideas, no spreading of muck/slurry in autumn, unless you can show crop need, no you cannot, extended to dirty water, as well, which would mean we need more storage, which requires planning approval, and EA as well, there will need to be some serious decisions made, for many dairy, or even pig farmers, like, do we spend more, or stop. Then we know phosphates will be coming into the limelight. We wont need 6 months storage, we will need 12, allowing for adverse weather, in the small spring spreading window. These ideas look good on paper, but they don't work in practice.
Dirty water contamination here, is our fault, we have concentrated it on to 5 acres, above our old water source, very dry, and never had muck/slurry on, as far back, as l can remember, because of that spring. It is now becoming quite productive, and the water comes from a bore hole

som farmer · Sep 12, 2021

ShooTa said:
its alright chaps - we can buy a regenerative grass seed..

New regenerative grass seed Estate Range launched

New regenerative grass seed Estate Range launched A new regenerative Estate Range of grass seed has been launched to the market by Lincolnshire-based seed specialist Cope Seeds and Grain. Launched to complement integrated farming systems, the range will enable landowners to reduce input...

thefarmingforum.co.uk

one mix on there, has 3 kg legume seed included, that's quite a lot, for any mix. One could probably mix a good ley mix up, a lot cheaper, than a 'special regen' one, sounds like jumping n the bandwagon.
It does show how important clover is, in supplying N and protien, a 'super' plant.

Fenwick · Sep 12, 2021

Trying to upload a video, hope this works (second try)

som farmer · Sep 12, 2021

cattle look well, and keen to move, cleaned up about right behind them. However, don't like the horns, don't you get any problems or injury with them, with our dairy, any cow with a horn, or stub, soon learns how to use them, aggressively, usually in the vaginal area, needed to stitch a few up, over the years, that, and bullying shy cows off feed.

Fenwick · Sep 12, 2021

som farmer said:
cattle look well, and keen to move, cleaned up about right behind them. However, don't like the horns, don't you get any problems or injury with them, with our dairy, any cow with a horn, or stub, soon learns how to use them, aggressively, usually in the vaginal area, needed to stitch a few up, over the years, that, and bullying shy cows off feed.

Yes horns are a pain in the butt.

Lost a heifer with her horns stuck in a gate this winter. She was a promising animal too with a decent calf at foot.

Haven't had many problems with them hurting each other. I've certainly had some close calls though.

Most of the problems are because our equipement isn't designed for horned animals (working in rectifying that (the equipment not the horns)).

Can't imagine my cattle without them though.

Crofter64 · Sep 12, 2021

Kiwi Pete said:
Have you looked into biodynamic preps?

Always a tricky subject to broach.... but it works here, I would say it's like the fertiliser you use when you don't use fertiliser, IYSWIM

I’ve thought of going down the BD route several times, but always got sidetracked by the lingo. Where would you recommend that a person start with it?

som farmer · Sep 12, 2021

question, what is the ideal seed rate, for a grazing ley, of clover ?
the worst thing about clover, is it gets really growing, later in the season, when one could use it more profitably, at the beginning ! If we, as dairy farmers, wish to cut our fert and protien costs, legumes and rotation, are the answer.
Playing around with ideas, one rotation, should include a cereal crop, simply to enable a 'de-weeding' break, weeds are the biggest problem we have to solve, from the crop aspect.

Kiwi Pete · Sep 12, 2021

Crofter64 said:
I’ve thought of going down the BD route several times, but always got sidetracked by the lingo. Where would you recommend that a person start with it?

Yeah, I see how that easily happens "in public" especially. You have to line up beside the sceptics and people "with scientific minds" ie those who need to see peer-reviewed stuff - and it gets cumbersome fast. Then you have the Steiner Disciples

I cut through most of that by befriending an old fella (in his late 80s) who is right into BD and just tapped his knowledge. Not all about ego with this guy... and I just got some BD501 from him for a start and put it on like he said to do.

I read someone once say "you don't need to know how to build a truck to drive a truck" and I left my interest about there - I'd go mad trying to understand it all, so I saved myself the pain.

Kiwi Pete · Sep 13, 2021

som farmer said:
question, what is the ideal seed rate, for a grazing ley, of clover ?
the worst thing about clover, is it gets really growing, later in the season, when one could use it more profitably, at the beginning ! If we, as dairy farmers, wish to cut our fert and protien costs, legumes and rotation, are the answer.
Playing around with ideas, one rotation, should include a cereal crop, simply to enable a 'de-weeding' break, weeds are the biggest problem we have to solve, from the crop aspect.

Which clover are we talking about?

If you're looking for early-season legumes, it'd make sense to plant some, because your regular whites and reds like warmth.
Having a high seedrate doesn't change the plant's preference for warmer soils and less shading - that's why they put white clover in ryegrass mixes, two complementary gapfillers.

You may be better to sow peas, beans, or vetches as well?

@Blaithin frostseeded some cicer milkvetch (I think?) and it looked pretty successful from what I saw

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