"Improving Our Lot" - Planned Holistic Grazing, for starters..

bumkin

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
pembrokeshire
my father and his brothers were traditional mixed farmers sheep cattle pigs and a little wheat barley and oats, the only firt used was basic slag and ground limestone however in their time they were pilloried for being old fashioned when I started i got educated and was told that you need 300 units of n per annum to grow grass, the oldies said the use of artificial firt (bag muck)would ruin a grass ley as it encouraged surface rooting the grass-grown with all that n just made cows sh!t like water because that was all that was in it, also because the grass was shallow rooting it would not be rich in minerals thus encouraging metabolic disorders and prone to drought
 

holwellcourtfarm

Member
Livestock Farmer
beginning slowly to realise, high rates of urea and N, while producing a yield increase, are unnecessary, that goes against all l have been taught, and still being told. There is little doubt, going forward, more and more restrictions are going to reduce their use, by price, and legislation.
Looking back at what we used to use, 40 yrs ago, nearly makes me cringe, first cut, used to get 3 bags of 20:10:10, and 3 of N, that was before 2nd cut, that was 3bags of 'after cut'. Times and knowledge have reduced those rates, could be interesting to see total fert purchases, in 1970, to compare with now, as a country, a huge difference ?
There again, little thought was given to pollution, clover, manure, it was, chuck more on. The one good thing about NVZ rules, is it restricts N use, and makes you realise the value of shite. We will continue to use N, in targeted use, spring mainly, and all fert will contain sulphur, that gives a huge return, you can see a definite line between the have, and had not. That need is down to 'climate change', they stopped using coal fired power stations.
I would like to see more definite figures, of how much N good clover leys produce, and at what stage, that N is utilised by grass, as in spring uptake.
Right, now for the shocking news, straight from a merchant ag buyer, now.
ICI or CF, have stopped producing N fert, not sure about blended, because with the rising cost of gas, from which fert is made, todays price would have to be £500+ ton, for 34.5 N. This came from a manager, who has been told, not to take any orders for fert, or quote, imported is now over £400, but any orders, not taken.
Calcium, as in milk fever, is not available, at least 3 weeks delivery time needed, if they can even get it.
no stubble turnip, or rape seed, for next year, unless, doubtful, a new source can be found, flea beetle. The list went on and on, either not obtainable, or on long back order, delivery date, not known.
That news, came from 1 of the major 3 ag supply firms, in the UK.
That, will certainly alter farming, and of course, nobody knows if it temporary, or this will be the new norm. As a final note, they have sold out of clover seed, wonder why ?
Wow! That might make a few on here change their tune and try other ways to optimise production.

If, like many of us in this thread, they find that productivity doesn't have to drop with less inputs, it could even kill the cash cow of the inputs industry. Strange times indeed.
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
my father and his brothers were traditional mixed farmers sheep cattle pigs and a little wheat barley and oats, the only firt used was basic slag and ground limestone however in their time they were pilloried for being old fashioned when I started i got educated and was told that you need 300 units of n per annum to grow grass, the oldies said the use of artificial firt (bag muck)would ruin a grass ley as it encouraged surface rooting the grass-grown with all that n just made cows sh!t like water because that was all that was in it, also because the grass was shallow rooting it would not be rich in minerals thus encouraging metabolic disorders and prone to drought
The first (and only) dairy I've worked on that didn't need to dust causmag/limeflour to keep the cows on their feet in the spring, had also been organic for 18 years.

All the conventional farms bar none, had to dust / bag cows / put mag C in the water or a combination of those

eventually you reach the conclusion that extra yield doesn't mean extra profit for you, just those who keep calling in with more supplies for the "farm first aid kit"
 

bumkin

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
pembrokeshire
The first (and only) dairy I've worked on that didn't need to dust causmag/limeflour to keep the cows on their feet in the spring, had also been organic for 18 years.

All the conventional farms bar none, had to dust / bag cows / put mag C in the water or a combination of those

eventually you reach the conclusion that extra yield doesn't mean extra profit for you, just those who keep calling in with more supplies for the "farm first aid kit"
it does seem that farmers are easily fooled into a lot of stuff they were led to believe by having Holstine cows they would make more money because they gave more milk, now i see that they are crossing them with channel island cattle well if I have my history right the old British Friesian was a cross with a dairy shorthorn the Holstine does give more milk but it also is a lot bigger thus needing more for maintenance it is prone to lameness and I am told they are knackered by the time they have done 4 lactations their calves are worthless unless they are kept for breeding certainly no use for beef, so you can graze more British Friesians per hectare have more calves that are worth more and have a cow that lasts longer and is worth more as a barren so I might suggest there is more money in the Friesian, but i think ego takes over and all that is thought about is gallons per cow
 

bumkin

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
pembrokeshire
The first (and only) dairy I've worked on that didn't need to dust causmag/limeflour to keep the cows on their feet in the spring, had also been organic for 18 years.

All the conventional farms bar none, had to dust / bag cows / put mag C in the water or a combination of those

eventually you reach the conclusion that extra yield doesn't mean extra profit for you, just those who keep calling in with more supplies for the "farm first aid kit"
in those days organic hadn't been invented
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
Wow! That might make a few on here change their tune and try other ways to optimise production.

If, like many of us in this thread, they find that productivity doesn't have to drop with less inputs, it could even kill the cash cow of the inputs industry. Strange times indeed.
suprisingly, after decades of denial, i'm beginning to agree with you.
Fert at £400+is still cost effective, just, and if used sensibly, ie early. But for many farmers relying on it, the upfront costs, may be hard to find, even if spread over 3 months, £400, puts a load at £12000,+vat, £500 doesn't bear thinking about. Source told us, he had just been shouted at, because a artic load was late arriving, and told him what he could do with the load, no problem, it had been bought forward, at £275 ....
There again, things tend to fall in line, if making changes, if they are the right ones. Our helper is leaving, under his own decision, just as we were deciding to down size, and going more extensive, all falls neatly into line, We have topped some silage ground up, with another 2kg red clover, and been overseeding grazing ground, with 1.5kg of white, and 1 kg of timothy, -its the cooler, damper ground, at the bottom end of the farm, not much of that. So, we are already doing, what many will be forced to do.
A new way, to assess the rental value of land, how much will it produce, without fert ! But as told this morning, it is getting seriously hard, to source anything, from the manufacturers, simply because they rely, on getting stuff, from different sources, and always seem to be lacking something.
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
it does seem that farmers are easily fooled into a lot of stuff they were led to believe by having Holstine cows they would make more money because they gave more milk, now i see that they are crossing them with channel island cattle well if I have my history right the old British Friesian was a cross with a dairy shorthorn the Holstine does give more milk but it also is a lot bigger thus needing more for maintenance it is prone to lameness and I am told they are knackered by the time they have done 4 lactations their calves are worthless unless they are kept for breeding certainly no use for beef, so you can graze more British Friesians per hectare have more calves that are worth more and have a cow that lasts longer and is worth more as a barren so I might suggest there is more money in the Friesian, but i think ego takes over and all that is thought about is gallons per cow
agreed, but top holstiens are usually matching continentals, for barren price, but only if you ignore those that cannot go there. I would guess, a true value of a hol, at the end, would be £3-400, counting those shot/died on farm, and the plain ones. On the xbred side, not much different either, counting all, inc the very jersey type. The fr would be better, but things can go wrong, with them. The biggest pluses with fr and xb, are quality of milk, longer useful life, and cheaper to feed/medicate. Whether it all balances out, in the end, is probably more to do with management.
As KP hinted, it's more about about how much of the milk sold, leaves money in your pocket.
Times, they are a'changing, and we have to change with them, a return to mixed farming ? For some, yes, but for many, they wont/cant change rapidly, they will have to make some serious forward planning.
 
Last edited:

Fenwick

Member
Location
Bretagne France
So I have been having a good look through my cows looking at body scores etc and trying to get a feel for how they are performing on 'overgrown' grass. (Generally over three month recoverys as opposed to the more normal 35 days).

I think in the whole, it is not so bad, there are at least four which seem to be underperforming on body condition. Two of which are my tallest cows. I'll put some magnets in them and perhaps do a FEC.

I can't see visually an awful difference in them between this year and last. It could be better, and it could be worse.
Never easy doing body conditions scores with Salers.

The heifers are on a more 'normal' rotation, and look good. I'll have to try and get a photo or two of them.

What do you guys think?

 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
cattle look good, what stage of pregnancy are they ? Calves look a nice size as well. The only downside, is those horns, cut em off !! When we have had french hiefers over, some are dehorned, and some have had the ends cut off, which makes them look even worse, but it doesn't affect their milking ability.
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
So I have been having a good look through my cows looking at body scores etc and trying to get a feel for how they are performing on 'overgrown' grass. (Generally over three month recoverys as opposed to the more normal 35 days).

I think in the whole, it is not so bad, there are at least four which seem to be underperforming on body condition. Two of which are my tallest cows. I'll put some magnets in them and perhaps do a FEC.

I can't see visually an awful difference in them between this year and last. It could be better, and it could be worse.
Never easy doing body conditions scores with Salers.

The heifers are on a more 'normal' rotation, and look good. I'll have to try and get a photo or two of them.

What do you guys think?

I think they look great, I gave up looking for lighter cows and drifted off to counting the knots in your fence.
Second time through I looked a bit more critically 🙄

Shifting on gutfill is where art meets science, because there is always variation in animal behaviour.
The "hungry" ones should always change, because some cows will have laid down and ruminated where others strive to cram more in - do you notice this when you shift them?

Our calves are in much lighter condition, and much more variation/range as roughly ⅓ were kept at home, fed well and regularly drenched.
⅔ were sent to a grazier who struggled to feed them, so they mainly moped around bales and waited for better - it's going to be a huge challenge to get them all ready for mating but we will do our best

As Einstein said so well, "the theory decides what we can observe"
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
@Bury the Trash - are you online?

Can you talk to me about tall fescue please

I've got my agronomist mate coming this week and I'm leaning strongly towards a fescue mix

what are the cons, because it looks like the logical pasture base from all my research, and alot of the American graziers are basically just dealing with fescues bromes and cocksfoot
 

Bury the Trash

Member
Mixed Farmer
:):sleep:@Bury the Trash - are you online?

Can you talk to me about tall fescue please

I've got my agronomist mate coming this week and I'm leaning strongly towards a fescue mix

what are the cons, because it looks like the logical pasture base from all my research, and alot of the American graziers are basically just dealing with fescues bromes and cocksfoot
I was but want to go to bed as its midnight :oops:
I havnt found any cons... on the modest area we have ... as such, its in a mix mind you and we are heavily stocked on it with the sheep most of the year.....
I'll get back to you tomorrow :sleep::)
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
i think husbandry is the word the other thing is the way young stock are reared some are overfed and become lazy digesters a bit like modern kids that are fat on junk food its as if they dont develop their digestion
We tried to do the exact opposite of that with our heifers - welfare = well, fare

Even though they are lazy tanks now, they are still small lazy tanks compared to what they could have been, but still fertile and fit and friendly cows with good depth in them

Quite interesting really as I make no bones about being a good farmer! I'm not! Possibly being a worse farmer can give you better stock, they calve by 20 months and we can bring them forward 50 days a year, so they are good girls.
 

Fenwick

Member
Location
Bretagne France
I gave up looking for lighter cows and drifted off to counting the knots in your fence

There's enough to put you to sleep! The breaks are caused by the animals grazing under the fence and pulling back with their horns (I think you mentioned this earlier)

The "hungry" ones should always change, because some cows will have laid down and ruminated where others strive to cram more in - do you notice this when you shift them?

Yes and no.

Some of the dominant cows will always be in the first lot through the gate, and the subordinate cows are often always last. There is definately a mix up with the rest though.

cattle look good, what stage of pregnancy are they ? Calves look a nice size as well. The only downside, is those horns, cut em off !! When we have had french hiefers over, some are dehorned, and some have had the ends cut off, which makes them look even worse, but it doesn't affect their milking ability.

All stages of pregnancy, (the bull is run with them all year as we need a constant flow of calves for the veal market) though I should imagine that a good few will be calving before the end of the year, and a good few in february.

Most cattle over here are dehorned, and I totally understand. But I'm going to try to find a solution to work with them at least for now.
There are polled Salers about, but they produce less milk.

I'm reasonably happy with the cows, especially considering they haven't seen 'young' grass since early may.
I am extremely happy with the pasture (but it has been an easy year). So if the cows are OK, then I think we shall continue with this appoach next year.

As for the calves, I think we are a little down on DLWG compared to last year. (I will wait until the end of the year to confirm), but I have also changed the bull so its difficult to say.
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
There's enough to put you to sleep! The breaks are caused by the animals grazing under the fence and pulling back with their horns (I think you mentioned this earlier)



Yes and no.

Some of the dominant cows will always be in the first lot through the gate, and the subordinate cows are often always last. There is definately a mix up with the rest though.



All stages of pregnancy, (the bull is run with them all year as we need a constant flow of calves for the veal market) though I should imagine that a good few will be calving before the end of the year, and a good few in february.

Most cattle over here are dehorned, and I totally understand. But I'm going to try to find a solution to work with them at least for now.
There are polled Salers about, but they produce less milk.

I'm reasonably happy with the cows, especially considering they haven't seen 'young' grass since early may.
I am extremely happy with the pasture (but it has been an easy year). So if the cows are OK, then I think we shall continue with this appoach next year.

As for the calves, I think we are a little down on DLWG compared to last year. (I will wait until the end of the year to confirm), but I have also changed the bull so its difficult to say.
watched some wild cattle handling, on u'tube, we know nothing about handling wild horned cattle, it's amusing to watch, l think they are bred for the bull ring in spain, but they are definitely dangerous. Why, no idea, but they were screwing brass fittings, onto the points, with a brass 'ball' on the end, to stop any serious injury, l suspect, to idiots, but would do the same for other cattle, looked allright to.

@Kiwi Pete yanks keep on about orchard grass, which l have assumed to be cocksfoot, and kentucky bluegrass, again assuming that is a fesque, timothy and clover. However you never hear overmuch about ryegrass, that may well be because of who i 'follow' either have 24/7 housed dairy, or beef outside, and indeed of what part of USA they are.
Considering the importance we attach to ryegrass, seems slightly strange they don't mention much about them, and of course, they have a few different crops to utilise, you never know, we might be missing a trick or two !
 

SFI - What % were you taking out of production?

  • 0 %

    Votes: 79 42.0%
  • Up to 25%

    Votes: 66 35.1%
  • 25-50%

    Votes: 30 16.0%
  • 50-75%

    Votes: 3 1.6%
  • 75-100%

    Votes: 3 1.6%
  • 100% I’ve had enough of farming!

    Votes: 7 3.7%

Red Tractor drops launch of green farming scheme amid anger from farmers

  • 1,292
  • 1
As reported in Independent


quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

read the TFF thread here: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/gfc-was-to-go-ahead-now-not-going-ahead.405234/
Top