Line one Herefords

M-J-G · Oct 12, 2021

Woolless said:
Is it not just as simple as more growth, slightly bigger average frame size and so somewhat higher maintenance requirement?

Yeah so I keep hearing, but most natives are 600 to 700kg these days, most of our Continental cows aren't that weight and they tend to put more into a calf than the average native will.

The smaller cow often still eats as much as a bigger cow, if grazed well, many of them pile it onto their back and do nothing with it.
I'm not saying that a if given a belly full of rubbish the smaller cow won't do better, buy I'm more into production off well managed grass not letting grass go rough, so I don't see the point in grazing cattle that don't have output.
I'm not on a hill farm and by the sounds of it neither is the OP.

Hilly · Oct 12, 2021

M-J-G said:
Grass and clover will naturally keep land rich if managed appropriately, and cattle will feed the arable crops keeping costs of grain production down.
1000 tonnes of dung going onto arable land has increased in value hugely in the past year.

Ive noticed line ones don't hold condition like a lot of natives do, why aren't they fat on good land, isn't low input what natives are about?

I guess it’s how the grazing is managed eh ., everyone who’s seen mine is always impressed how they in good fettle but don’t get them fatty lumps “ rough fat “ as it gets called they just keep nice condition.

tinsheet · Oct 12, 2021

Get your grazing management right and they'll be fine !

Woolless · Oct 12, 2021

M-J-G said:
Yeah so I keep hearing, but most natives are 600 to 700kg these days, most of our Continental cows aren't that weight and they tend to put more into a calf than the average native will.

The smaller cow often still eats as much as a bigger cow, if grazed well, many of them pile it onto their back and do nothing with it.
I'm not saying that a if given a belly full of rubbish the smaller cow won't do better, buy I'm more into production off well managed grass not letting grass go rough, so I don't see the point in grazing cattle that don't have output.
I'm not on a hill farm and by the sounds of it neither is the OP.

There are some big native cows nowadays, that's certainly true. One of the biggest cows I've seen recently was a beef shorthorn.

Dry matter intake calculated as percentage of bodyweight, so I doubt that a small cow will eat as much as a bigger cow. Keep more of them to keep the fat off, more calves?

Hilly · Oct 12, 2021

Woolless said:
There are some big native cows nowadays, that's certainly true. One of the biggest cows I've seen recently was a beef shorthorn.

Dry matter intake calculated as percentage of bodyweight, so I doubt that a small cow will eat as much as a bigger cow. Keep more of them to keep the fat off, more calves?

What’s a small cow a medium cow and a big cow ?

Woolless · Oct 12, 2021

Hilly said:
What’s a small cow a medium cow and a big cow ?

Say 500kg, 650 and 800 plus roughly? Some of the radical US grazing folks want cows under 500kg.

Hilly · Oct 12, 2021

Woolless said:
Say 500kg, 650 and 800 plus roughly? Some of the radical US grazing folks want cows under 500kg.

Hard to keep them small over ten years plus they grow to size land allows .

M-J-G · Oct 12, 2021

Woolless said:
There are some big native cows nowadays, that's certainly true. One of the biggest cows I've seen recently was a beef shorthorn.

Dry matter intake calculated as percentage of bodyweight, so I doubt that a small cow will eat as much as a bigger cow. Keep more of them to keep the fat off, more calves?

The biggest cow I've ever seen was an AA, I had a vet tell me that most of the biggest cows he deals with these days are AA.

Yeah, calculated intakes are one thing.
Back when we started keeping a significant number of cows we had AA x Hol, Lim x Hol and Blue greys, the bluegreys were lighter but the ate much more silage than either of the others, we knew this because they were penned separately, they kept themselves in better shape but they didn't have the calves that the others did, but they were basically a big gut on 4 short legs, they probably ticked a lot of boxes for being efficient little cows, but they weren't.
We got the first Sims and found them to eat little different. And when we moved to out wintering the Holstein crosses had to be scrapped as they weren't able to keep themselves on rough silage, but the sims who were not really much bigger did the same outside as they did when they were inside, mainly because they had capacity to eat enough poor forage to thrive.

So I'm afraid the small cow being more efficient to keep theory doesn't hold much water with me.

Keep more of them to keep the fat off them? Really!

Hilly · Oct 12, 2021

M-J-G said:
The biggest cow I've ever seen was an AA, I had a vet tell me that most of the biggest cows he deals with these days are AA.

Yeah, calculated intakes are one thing.
Back when we started keeping a significant number of cows we had AA x Hol, Lim x Hol and Blue greys, the bluegreys were lighter but the ate much more silage than either of the others, we knew this because they were penned separately, they kept themselves in better shape but they didn't have the calves that the others did, but they were basically a big gut on 4 short legs, they probably ticked a lot of boxes for being efficient little cows, but they weren't.
We got the first Sims and found them to eat little different. And when we moved to out wintering the Holstein crosses had to be scrapped as they weren't able to keep themselves on rough silage, but the sims who were not really much bigger did the same outside as they did when they were inside, mainly because they had capacity to eat enough poor forage to thrive.

So I'm afraid the small cow being more efficient to keep theory doesn't hold much water with me.

Keep more of them to keep the fat off them? Really!

What size are your cows ?

M-J-G · Oct 12, 2021

Hilly said:
What size are your cows ?

650kg or so

Hilly · Oct 12, 2021

M-J-G said:
650kg or so

Is that small for simmy ?

M-J-G · Oct 12, 2021

Hilly said:
Is that small for simmy ?

Yes, they'll be heavier when culled, usually over 700 when fattened.

I've used German genetics which tend to be a bit smaller, I have used some Danish breeding too but they are a bit bigger so they have to used with caution.

I wouldn't like to go much smaller since a 360kg carcass is still 650kg live. So dropping below that mature size in a cow makes finishing at a young age more of a chore.

Woolless · Oct 12, 2021

M-J-G said:
The biggest cow I've ever seen was an AA, I had a vet tell me that most of the biggest cows he deals with these days are AA.

Yeah, calculated intakes are one thing.
Back when we started keeping a significant number of cows we had AA x Hol, Lim x Hol and Blue greys, the bluegreys were lighter but the ate much more silage than either of the others, we knew this because they were penned separately, they kept themselves in better shape but they didn't have the calves that the others did, but they were basically a big gut on 4 short legs, they probably ticked a lot of boxes for being efficient little cows, but they weren't.
We got the first Sims and found them to eat little different. And when we moved to out wintering the Holstein crosses had to be scrapped as they weren't able to keep themselves on rough silage, but the sims who were not really much bigger did the same outside as they did when they were inside, mainly because they had capacity to eat enough poor forage to thrive.

So I'm afraid the small cow being more efficient to keep theory doesn't hold much water with me.

Keep more of them to keep the fat off them? Really!

That's interesting. Maybe I would say that Blue Greys aren't meant to penned and eating silage? Wintered out on rough grass instead? But I may just be making excuses for them, as I have no experience of them.

What I will say is that from my direct experience my Traditional Herefords always look the fullest and are in the best condition of my cows. My AA x dairy is just about the leanest, emptiest looking and seems to eat the most. Good calf on her, though.

M-J-G · Oct 12, 2021

Woolless said:
That's interesting. Maybe I would say that Blue Greys aren't meant to penned and eating silage? Wintered out on rough grass instead? But I may just be making excuses for them, as I have no experience of them.

What I will say is that from my direct experience my Traditional Herefords always look the fullest and are in the best condition of my cows. My AA x dairy is just about the leanest, emptiest looking and seems to eat the most. Good calf on her, though.

You suggested running more smaller cows as a way to keep cows thinner, any suggestions on how to do that on a lowland mixed farm that uses rotational grazing?

Woolless · Oct 12, 2021

M-J-G said:
You suggested running more smaller cows as a way to keep cows thinner, any suggestions on how to do that on a lowland mixed farm that uses rotational grazing?

Yes, adopt total/non-selective grazing. Longer rest periods followed by grazing right down.

I can understand sucklers being used to optimise sheep grazing on a lowland farm. Do they stack up as an enterprise outwith that, on your system?

M-J-G · Oct 13, 2021

Woolless said:
Yes, adopt total/non-selective grazing. Longer rest periods followed by grazing right down.

I can understand sucklers being used to optimise sheep grazing on a lowland farm. Do they stack up as an enterprise outwith that, on your system?

Yes, cows work fine in our situation, they use the straw from the arable enterprise allowing all the grain to be sold (unlike finishers) and putting dung on stubbles, have a use for a grass rotation for cereal break and keep grass clean for sheep.

I'm not looking for tips on grazing, I've been rotational grazing stock since I was a child sent to move electric fences.
What I am interested in is how to practically graze small low keep cows in a way that keeps them leaner like you suggested, so that they don't get over fat on good land yet the calves can thrive and achieve good weights at weaning whilst grazing the same grass?

Woolless · Oct 13, 2021

M-J-G said:
Yes, cows work fine in our situation, they use the straw from the arable enterprise allowing all the grain to be sold (unlike finishers) and putting dung on stubbles, have a use for a grass rotation for cereal break and keep grass clean for sheep.

I'm not looking for tips on grazing, I've been rotational grazing stock since I was a child sent to move electric fences.
What I am interested in is how to practically graze small low keep cows in a way that keeps them leaner like you suggested, so that they don't get over fat on good land yet the calves can thrive and achieve good weights at weaning whilst grazing the same grass?

Google Jim Elizondo total grazing. Just an answer to your question, I wouldn't be as impertinent as to give you 'tips'.

Hilly · Oct 13, 2021

M-J-G said:
Yes, cows work fine in our situation, they use the straw from the arable enterprise allowing all the grain to be sold (unlike finishers) and putting dung on stubbles, have a use for a grass rotation for cereal break and keep grass clean for sheep.

I'm not looking for tips on grazing, I've been rotational grazing stock since I was a child sent to move electric fences.
What I am interested in is how to practically graze small low keep cows in a way that keeps them leaner like you suggested, so that they don't get over fat on good land yet the calves can thrive and achieve good weights at weaning whilst grazing the same grass?

Just tighten things up a bit more cows less area , it’s not rocket science .

M-J-G · Oct 13, 2021

Hilly said:
Just tighten things up a bit more cows less area , it’s not rocket science .

Really?
Have you found keeping cows hungry to keep condition off them on a lowland rotational system to work for you?

Bill the Bass · Oct 13, 2021

Hilly said:
What’s a small cow a medium cow and a big cow ?

Sorry couldn’t resist.

Line one Herefords

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