Sustainable farming incentive details published today 2 December 2021

icanshootwell · Dec 3, 2021

I have to say my brain is starting to hurt with all these regulations and carrot dangling, I have been farming a considerable amount of years doing what the gov is telling me to do now, i have no brown soils over winter, the plough is safely tucked away at the back of the shed and only comes out on special occasions. Fert has been cut in half over the last 10 years and sprays also, red and white clovers have replaced fast growing rye grass. Now i,m being told i can,t spread mature and well rotted cattle muck onto DRY autumn ground for winter wheat. What do i do Janet, order some more expensive fert instead.

When is the best time to spread? because it,s not in the spring when the water table is high from the winter. In the summer i want the grass for grazing and not covered in sh#t. Does the Gov know how the Nitrogen cycle works!!! EVERY FARMER knows Autumn is the best time for applying FYM.

neilo · Dec 3, 2021

spin cycle said:
uncalled for 'jog on'

I think @Henarar was just making a play on words. Hippo being a large mammal that likes to wallow, and the 'crete' being the concrete.

Don't worry @Henarar , I groaned when I read it.

Edit: to slow, as ever.

topground · Dec 3, 2021

No doubt the soil organic material data collected at the expense of farmers will be used in time by government to justify whatever policy regarding decarbonising the planet they have put in place. Giving with one hand to take away with the other and soil testing costs will escalate making the already derisory payments for grassland even less attractive.
Stating that it is for the farmers benefit to have this information, particularly in the case of an all grass farm is disingenuous to say the least.
Soil monitoring data appears to be the only measurable outcome of the SFI scheme as I read it. @Janet Hughes Defra are there any other measurable outcomes that I have missed?

Janet Hughes Defra · Dec 3, 2021

delilah said:
Yeah, I understood your initial posts, the SFI payment isn't related to the results, got that.
My point was that I see no public good in making farmers spend time and money on testing their som in order to receive that payment

ok noted in that case - we think farmers will find it useful to do the test and make a plan, and we think it will lead to better outcomes because farmers will have more information on which to base decisions to manage soil health, alongside all of the other information and expertise they already have. But we'll be monitoring how the scheme goes, and if we find it's not useful, we will adapt the scheme for future rounds to reflect that (as we will with any aspect of the scheme that we find we need to change or improve over time).

delilah · Dec 3, 2021

Janet Hughes Defra said:
All the money coming out of direct payments is going back to farmers through schemes eg SFI and Farming Investment Fund, each year

All of it ?
For sure, it will be pretty much all of it by the time sense has been seen, but at the moment it is only 30% for the SFI, yes ? The bulk of the rest is earmarked to go to estates, charities, quangos and admin.

DRC · Dec 3, 2021

Janet Hughes Defra said:
Sorry not to have been clear, I meant that the payment is not related to the results of the test. The payment for the standard includes payment for taking the test. The point of the test is to inform the farmer, not to provide data for Defra to use as the basis for checking up on people.

delilah said:
Yeah, I understood your initial posts, the SFI payment isn't related to the results, got that.
My point was that I see no public good in making farmers spend time and money on testing their som in order to receive that payment.

It’s called teaching your granny to suck eggs

Janet Hughes Defra · Dec 3, 2021

topground said:
No doubt the soil organic material data collected at the expense of farmers will be used in time by government to justify whatever policy regarding decarbonising the planet they have put in place. Giving with one hand to take away with the other and soil testing costs will escalate making the already derisory payments for grassland even less attractive.
Stating that it is for the farmers benefit to have this information, particularly in the case of an all grass farm is disingenuous to say the least.
Soil monitoring data appears to be the only measurable outcome of the SFI scheme as I read it. @Janet Hughes Defra are there any other measurable outcomes that I have missed?

We're not gathering the data from the tests and have no intention of using it in that way.

Yes, there are measurable outcomes from winter cover, organic matter and green cover. Also, assuming by 2028 the soil standards cover 50% to 70% of eligible agricultural soil in England, this could save approximately 330 to 460 thousand tonnes of CO2 equivalent in 2028.

Janet Hughes Defra · Dec 3, 2021

delilah said:
All of it ?
For sure, it will be pretty much all of it by the time sense has been seen, but at the moment it is only 30% for the SFI, yes ? The bulk of the rest is earmarked to go to estates, charities, quangos and admin.

Yes - some through existing schemes eg CS, the rest through new schemes. Also note that the local nature recovery scheme will also be mainly farmers and farm land, and you'll be able to enter into that on top of any SFI agreement. SFI is about how you farm, local nature recovery is more focused on making space on less productive areas of your farm for nature.

Janet Hughes Defra · Dec 3, 2021

silverfox said:
It’s called teaching your granny to suck eggs

I didn't mean to teach granny to suck eggs, I thought I had caused a misunderstanding.

delilah · Dec 3, 2021

Janet Hughes Defra said:
ok noted in that case - we think farmers will find it useful to do the test and make a plan, and we think it will lead to better outcomes because farmers will have more information on which to base decisions to manage soil health, alongside all of the other information and expertise they already have. But we'll be monitoring how the scheme goes, and if we find it's not useful, we will adapt the scheme for future rounds to reflect that (as we will with any aspect of the scheme that we find we need to change or improve over time).

Thanks for that. Yes, you will drop it in time. Same as the attempt to subsidize DD over other crop establishment techniques. It will all go in time. Sanity will prevail. All area based payments need to go to PP. We will get there.

icanshootwell · Dec 3, 2021

Janet Hughes Defra said:
ok noted in that case - we think farmers will find it useful to do the test and make a plan, and we think it will lead to better outcomes because farmers will have more information on which to base decisions to manage soil health, alongside all of the other information and expertise they already have. But we'll be monitoring how the scheme goes, and if we find it's not useful, we will adapt the scheme for future rounds to reflect that (as we will with any aspect of the scheme that we find we need to change or improve over time).

Soil health, muck, worms, little or no fert. My plan is to keep spreading the sh#t on the land, and i don,t need a test for that.

delilah · Dec 3, 2021

Janet Hughes Defra said:
Yes - some through existing schemes eg CS, the rest through new schemes. Also note that the local nature recovery scheme will also be mainly farmers and farm land, and you'll be able to enter into that on top of any SFI agreement. SFI is about how you farm, local nature recovery is more focused on making space on less productive areas of your farm for nature.

And Landscape Recovery ? 30% of the pot ?

topground · Dec 3, 2021

Janet Hughes Defra said:
We're not gathering the data from the tests and have no intention of using it in that way.

Yes, there are measurable outcomes from winter cover, organic matter and green cover. Also, assuming by 2028 the soil standards cover 50% to 70% of eligible agricultural soil in England, this could save approximately 330 to 460 thousand tonnes of CO2 equivalent in 2028.

@Janet Hughes Defra Why not?
No other measurable outcomes then to justify applying controls to the way my cattle graze permanent pasture on my farm in return for a laughable rate per hectare?
Has any work been done to justify dictating the standards applied to all grass farms and if so where are the measurable outcomes regarding that type of farming activity?
Any talk of nature recovery is just that, talk. Nature recovery here would be best served by amending the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 to halt the inexorable increase in top end predators. Reduce the number of raptors and the Yellow Hammers might have a chance.

Janet Hughes Defra · Dec 3, 2021

Haggis said:
@Janet Hughes Defra

Can land currently included in an HLS scheme be entered into and SFI agreement?

Yes, so long as they are compatible and we're not paying you for the same thing twice. We'll issue guidance about this before we launch the scheme.

Janet Hughes Defra · Dec 3, 2021

delilah said:
And Landscape Recovery ? 30% of the pot ?

We've said that is the initial allocation, yes, but we've also said: 'We will keep these allocations under review as we progress through the transition and learn more about the demand for and outcomes and value for money from each scheme' (in our update in June)

Janet Hughes Defra · Dec 3, 2021

Base Farmer John H said:
Can you publish them next week please????? We are makind management decisions Now!!!!

I do appreciate that, we're going as fast as we can and will publish the new rates as soon as we're able to

Velcro Gloves · Dec 3, 2021

@Janet Hughes Defra
Thank you for your time tonight, you've cleared up a lot of points and given some reassurance, I might actually get a nights sleep for once.

I still think there should be some kind of staged payment system based on acreage though otherwise the biggest land owners WILL take over eventually and the beautiful landscape we have WILL change for the worse.

delilah · Dec 3, 2021

Janet Hughes Defra said:
We've said that is the initial allocation, yes, but we've also said: 'We will keep these allocations under review as we progress through the transition and learn more about the demand for and outcomes and value for money from each scheme' (in our update in June)

90% of the ELMS pot will go to the SFI.
10% will go to a nature scheme of some sort, being a combination of the current LNR and LR proposals.
You read it on here some weeks ago

.

Janet Hughes Defra · Dec 3, 2021

Wombat said:
So that’s £8.50/ha and is it every 5yrs I read?

We'll set out guidance about how to do the testing, but the guidance will be per hectare, not per field. Yes, it's every 5 years.

delilah · Dec 3, 2021

Velcro Gloves said:
@Janet Hughes Defra
Thank you for your time tonight, you've cleared up a lot of points and given some reassurance, I might actually get a nights sleep for once. I still think there should be some kind of staged payment system based on acreage though otherwise the biggest land owners WILL take over eventually and the beautiful landscape we have WILL change for the worse.ig

Weighted payments is the one big thing they are yet to address. They will get there.

Sustainable farming incentive details published today 2 December 2021

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Up to 25%

25-50%

50-75%

75-100%

100% I’ve had enough of farming!

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