Has anybody grown it like red ie cut 3times then graze with a few sheep
Large leaved W clover
- Thread starter Dancingbrave
- Start date
davidroberts30
Member
- Location
- pembrokeshire
Not yet but I am sowing it in the spring with the idea for 3 to 4 cuts then graze
- Location
- somerset
red, grown pure, cut x3, fine, several years ago now.
today, we grow red clover dominant grass leys, and cut 5 times this year, hit the clover, so over seeded with 2.5kg/acre, but, plenty of white increasing, bales av 19% P.
But red has a problem, v/wilt, so we are trying different clovers, l wouldn't like to grow a pure stand, think it would need something to keep it upright, but a dominant w clover ley works, also better to use a 'mix', even a small % of small leaf, to keep a tight sward, post cut, and no v/wilt.
Came across an article about r/clover, oestrogen, and tupping sheep, which is bad, so we have been told. That research, was conducted in the 50/60's, nothing since, till now, which is suggesting it isn't a problem, but wait for conformation !!!
today, we grow red clover dominant grass leys, and cut 5 times this year, hit the clover, so over seeded with 2.5kg/acre, but, plenty of white increasing, bales av 19% P.
But red has a problem, v/wilt, so we are trying different clovers, l wouldn't like to grow a pure stand, think it would need something to keep it upright, but a dominant w clover ley works, also better to use a 'mix', even a small % of small leaf, to keep a tight sward, post cut, and no v/wilt.
Came across an article about r/clover, oestrogen, and tupping sheep, which is bad, so we have been told. That research, was conducted in the 50/60's, nothing since, till now, which is suggesting it isn't a problem, but wait for conformation !!!
davidroberts30
Member
- Location
- pembrokeshire
That's the reason ive gone to large leaf white clovers
d williams
Member
Will you get 3/4 cuts this yess as r after spring establishment what sort of yields do hope to get???
Me too I was wondering how it yields compared to red which has done for us but has the draw back of needing large rotation gaps between when you can grow it
Meant to to say done "well" for us
- Location
- East Sussex
Red and sheep don’t go well….. they just kill it. Sheep men with lambs to fatten won’t tell you that though.
- Location
- East Sussex
You mustn't graze it too tight in the winter or it will suffer. However bigger issue for red is when the grass becomes dominant again as it doesn't like the competition.
Not all Whites are equal!!
- Location
- Ceredigion
Large leaf white is the same , sheep will soon kill it out , it's no more persistent than Red and yields less
davidroberts30
Member
- Location
- pembrokeshire
- Location
- Ceredigion
You won't get 4 cuts first year as it's slower to establish than grass
I did my own mix here which was Red and White , I also included some annual clover that will help with bulk first year and some Hybrid Ryegrass so it conserves better
I did my own mix here which was Red and White , I also included some annual clover that will help with bulk first year and some Hybrid Ryegrass so it conserves better
ollie989898
Member
Takes a while to get going in the spring- once the soil warms up it gets the N it needs.
Used to establish pure stands of red clover using spring barley as a nurse crop. Put plenty of muck under it a and it grows like a plague. Clover often grew to above my waist in height before it was mown off.
Will see if I can find the pictures. Bit of volunteer ryegrass otherwise weed free.
Used to establish pure stands of red clover using spring barley as a nurse crop. Put plenty of muck under it a and it grows like a plague. Clover often grew to above my waist in height before it was mown off.
Will see if I can find the pictures. Bit of volunteer ryegrass otherwise weed free.
- Location
- somerset
red clover is brilliant, but has faults, major one being v wilt, which means you cannot grow continually, in same field. The other fault, is it is rather open in the sward bottom, which is why we are trying the 'wild' small leaf clover, to thicken up the bottom.
As clovers are a bit slow to get going, in the spring, which restricts 1st cut, and as you cannot keep growing red, without a break, we are looking at other clovers, currently have balsana overseeded into older pasture, which we cannot plough, it's germinated, so, as it's meant to grow earlier than others, it will be interesting to see what happens, the aim, is to improve quality of 1st cut, and some free N.
N fert, is highly unlikely to go much under £400, again, ( my view) so anything to increase free N, protein for feeding, isn't going to be overly cheap, again, so high protein crops, are also very important, both can have a positive effect on the bottom line.
Last year, and this, we have 32 acres, of cutting only leys, some red, some white clovers, and cut x5, probably could/should, have taken a 6th, on them. The rest of the silage, dual purpose/herbs clover etc, only pitted, if right growth stage. All face samples of pit, are around 16%p.
just wonder, how far we can go, along these lines.
As clovers are a bit slow to get going, in the spring, which restricts 1st cut, and as you cannot keep growing red, without a break, we are looking at other clovers, currently have balsana overseeded into older pasture, which we cannot plough, it's germinated, so, as it's meant to grow earlier than others, it will be interesting to see what happens, the aim, is to improve quality of 1st cut, and some free N.
N fert, is highly unlikely to go much under £400, again, ( my view) so anything to increase free N, protein for feeding, isn't going to be overly cheap, again, so high protein crops, are also very important, both can have a positive effect on the bottom line.
Last year, and this, we have 32 acres, of cutting only leys, some red, some white clovers, and cut x5, probably could/should, have taken a 6th, on them. The rest of the silage, dual purpose/herbs clover etc, only pitted, if right growth stage. All face samples of pit, are around 16%p.
just wonder, how far we can go, along these lines.
ollie989898
Member
Grass silage can be high protein anyway so it is sort of academic having clover which shows a bit higher in CP in an analysis.
I would not grow continuous clover any more than I would continuous grass- after a number of years the weed grasses creep in and it becomes expensive to be throwing nitrogen at them when they don't grow half as much as actual sown species.
Rotation is important and everyone's grandad knew it. Roots, kale or a cereal crop between leys and legumes always pays.
I wonder if a low rate of very small leafed white clover might be ok with red clover above it. Establish in spring under a low rate spring barley or oat crop.
I would not grow continuous clover any more than I would continuous grass- after a number of years the weed grasses creep in and it becomes expensive to be throwing nitrogen at them when they don't grow half as much as actual sown species.
Rotation is important and everyone's grandad knew it. Roots, kale or a cereal crop between leys and legumes always pays.
I wonder if a low rate of very small leafed white clover might be ok with red clover above it. Establish in spring under a low rate spring barley or oat crop.
- Location
- somerset
rotation, and soil structure, are what has been forgotten, in the age of cheap fert, and sprays.
ollie989898
Member
To be fair, fertiliser, diesel, sprays and wearing metal are still cheap compared with renting land or having to buy in cow grub of most sorts.
- Location
- somerset
were
davidroberts30
Member
- Location
- pembrokeshire
my 3 cuts this year are 14.5,15.5,15.5 for protein which is spot on for me finishing cattle
and i share your views on fert prices
- Location
- somerset
the problem is quite simple, we were encouraged to 'improve' yields etc, with cheap fert and sprays, and have become acclimatised to thinking they are THE way to do things.
Now, they are seen as 'bad', as is intensive farming, by a vocal proportion of the public. And to be fair, there is some truth in that, probably 'over use' is more to the point. And likewise we do not know the long term effects of them, plenty of history to show some every day items, were rather nasty, long term.
I have no real idea, how far we can go, using rotation, legumes, different grasses etc, to reduce the use of those chemical fixes, and still produce the yields we want, but l am prepared to find out. Not a believer in organic, diesel seems to replace sprays/fert, but there is plenty to learn from them.
Food inflation looks set to hit the public, and along with energy hikes, and extra taxes, to pay for covid, not sure l would want to be in the 'niche' market league, there will always be a mkt, but probably a shrinking one. Likewise, all the climatic/environmental rules, promises etc, now coming to the fore, are not conductive for producing cheap food, and l can see a serious clash of views, about to occur. It's quite simple, do you want affordable food, or not. Importing food stuffs, is neither climate friendly, or reliable, fert price will cause a reduction of global yield, so that route is somewhat uncertain.
But whatever happens, they all need feeding, and l am certain present politicians have absolutely no idea, of the effects food inflation will have, they all grew up, in the decades of cheap, and surplus food production.
My thoughts are simple, if we can produce acceptable yields, with limited use of chemicals, our profits should increase, and be more 'sustainable' or satisfying. If it comes to a choice, guvs will choose food production, over climate change, the first is now, the second is sometime, ahead.