Petition to reform the new landscape schemes

Steevo

Member
Location
Gloucestershire
Iacs was a production sub and everything since has been decoupled. We are as close to the market as we have ever been.

Yes. Close to the market that doesn’t want the food we produce above anybody else’s cheapest commodity.

There is no market for the additional “greening” we are required to do so in that sense we are further from the market for that element of “production”. Nobody is prepared to pay extra for that fuzzy feeling.

The market is broken because the population are encouraged to think they can have that free of charge. Hence no market.
 

farmerm

Member
Location
Shropshire
i would advocate a carbon tax to truly reflect cost of imports environmentally

i would also ban imports not produced to uk environmental or welfare standards

do the above (the logic / consistency of either are hard to argue with) and you don’t need import tariffs or subs
Who would do the checks to ensure imports are indeed produced to UK standards, your beloved RT? :ROFLMAO: Unless matched with massive changes to UK standards we would soon have no imports and starve, there is little that comes in that is not produced using chemicals, procedures or standards that would be equivalent to UK standards. Straight away there would be no soya or other GM contaminated grains, or crops that are reliant on the use of chemicals banned in the UK such as bananas, cocoa or coffee.

I would not advocate a carbon tax unless and until there is a global agreement on how carbon is calculated fairly and accurately, something unlikely to ever be reached. Without a global end to end standard it would become a case of whos trade body is the most creative with their carbon calculations wins.... "well see, we put our couple of shipping container or a ship already going somewhere for which its existing cargo of 2000 containers has already covered its carbon emissions so my container effectively travels carbon free..." "so your calculations hold you responsibly for the carbon emissions from production of your fertiliser you use, interesting, because in our calculation that responsibility lies with the fertiliser producer.... Of course the fert producers then have their own calculation which takes on no difference in responsibly regardless which of us they supply... Even with fair and equal calculators local does not always mean lower CO2. I wounder which has the lower CO2 footprint/t? Ukrainian milling wheat produced with low fert and chemical inputs, harvested dry and shipped around the world or milling wheat produced in the Midlands with high fert and fungicide programs, ends up having to be dried from 24% moisture and is hauled 20miles from field to store using new180hp tractors and 14T trailers.

For simplicity and fairness carbon should be taxed at the point of extraction from the earth and those providing genuine, long term, irreversible carbon sinks be rewarded. Tax the raw carbon and that cost naturally works down the supply chain and higher cost drives change to reduce use. Anything regarding carbon taxation that happens between the points of extraction and sequestration has nothing to do with slowing increase in atmospheric carbon and everything to do with generating revenues for governments and wealth for middle men.
 

Clive

Staff Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lichfield
Well then surely you want to sign this thing - it's a sub, landowners are to be getting it, so you'd be against it, no?

I have signed it for exactly this reason

We seem to be heading in completely the opposite direction to this. I think a great opportunity is being missed in the panic to sign free trade deals.🙁

agree 100%

Carbon tax would be good. it is an absolutely impossibility they would ban stuff not produced to our standards, it will never happen. Thats the line the NFU have been pushing and failing with for years. At best UK stuff could get a small premium.

yes 100% the case

if your banning and adding this tax then what is the point of farmers subsidy. Surely that itself would push the price up

Thats was what I was suggesting, no need for subs if you level the playing field. - let (undistorted) market forces dictate
Who would do the checks to ensure imports are indeed produced to UK standards, your beloved RT? :ROFLMAO: Unless matched with massive changes to UK standards we would soon have no imports and starve, there is little that comes in that is not produced using chemicals, procedures or standards that would be equivalent to UK standards. Straight away there would be no soya or other GM contaminated grains, or crops that are reliant on the use of chemicals banned in the UK such as bananas, cocoa or coffee.

I would not advocate a carbon tax unless and until there is a global agreement on how carbon is calculated fairly and accurately, something unlikely to ever be reached. Without a global end to end standard it would become a case of whos trade body is the most creative with their carbon calculations wins.... "well see, we put our couple of shipping container or a ship already going somewhere for which its existing cargo of 2000 containers has already covered its carbon emissions so my container effectively travels carbon free..." "so your calculations hold you responsibly for the carbon emissions from production of your fertiliser you use, interesting, because in our calculation that responsibility lies with the fertiliser producer.... Of course the fert producers then have their own calculation which takes on no difference in responsibly regardless which of us they supply... Even with fair and equal calculators local does not always mean lower CO2. I wounder which has the lower CO2 footprint/t? Ukrainian milling wheat produced with low fert and chemical inputs, harvested dry and shipped around the world or milling wheat produced in the Midlands with high fert and fungicide programs, ends up having to be dried from 24% moisture and is hauled 20miles from field to store using new180hp tractors and 14T trailers.

For simplicity and fairness carbon should be taxed at the point of extraction from the earth and those providing genuine, long term, irreversible carbon sinks be rewarded. Tax the raw carbon and that cost naturally works down the supply chain and higher cost drives change to reduce use. Anything regarding carbon taxation that happens between the points of extraction and sequestration has nothing to do with slowing increase in atmospheric carbon and everything to do with generating revenues for governments and wealth for middle men.

Government agencies should check / enforce, we do have such things already in place, this country has a robust border and C&E are there to stop things coming into the UK that are illegal / dangerous / counterfeit etc ......... RT have no legal mandate and have no power other than those they have given themselves so would be as irrelevant as they are now.


Yes - no GM ........ where is the logic in banning it in the UK but then allowing it to be imported ? ...... classic market distortion right there and one of many reason why UK farms struggle vs competition . Same for banned chemicals - if government has deemed it unsafe for UK why is it safe if used in any other country ? ....... utter nonsensical rubbish Regulation should be consistent or it's meaningless and distorting of free markets / damaging to health or environment

Carbon tax would fix a LOT of stupidity over night - NZ lamb in the UK ? crazy !! imported wheat / oilseed ....... madness when we export these commodities.. Soya from slash and burn rainforest an efficient feed ...... bonkers ! . It would also create a REAL reason for individuals and companies to change their behaviour and bring revenue to pay for technology that may reverse the damage we have done and still are all doing to the planet .............. nothing changes behaviour faster than financial implication, add 70% to the cost of every flight or car journey and I guarantee people would be doing a LOT less of it
 
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ajd132

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Suffolk
I think this is quite sensible. There is a lot of over the top doom mongering going on
 

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ajd132

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Suffolk
For sure Natural England do a great job.....🤔
I know he works for natural England among other stuff including being a farmer, but it does put it into perspective abit. If you read believed all the threads on here you would think the whole of the UK is being planted with trees and wooly mammoths released.
 

farmerm

Member
Location
Shropshire
I have signed it for exactly this reason



agree 100%



yes 100% the case



Thats was what I was suggesting, no need for subs if you level the playing field. - let (undistorted) market forces dictate


Government agencies should check / enforce, we do have such things already in place ......... RT have no legal mandate and have no power other than those they have given themselves so would be as irrelevant as they are now.


Yes - no GM ........ where is the logic in banning it in the UK but ten allowing it to be imported ? ...... classic market distortion right there and one of many reason why UK farms struggle vs competition . Same for banned chemicals - if government has deemed it unsafe for UK why is it safe if used in any other country ? ....... utter nonsensical rubbish Regulation should be consistent or it's meaningless and distorting of free markets

Carbon tax would fix a LOT of stupidity over night - NZ lamb in the UK ? crazy !! imported wheat / oilseed ....... madness when we export these commodities.. Soya from slash and burn rainforest an efficient feed ...... bonkers ! . It would also create a REAL reason for individuals and companies to change their behaviour and bring revenue to pay for technology that may reverse the damage we have done and still are all doing to the planet .............. nothing changes behaviour faster than financial implication, add 70% to the cost of every flight or car journey and I guarantee people would be doing a LOT less of it

UK Govenment agencies check and enforce on only a tiny fraction of what arrives in the UK each day.

I agree there seems no logic allowing in GM but the EU and now UK Gov understand that GM is so prevalent in global commodities it is practically impossible to avoid without banning all imports and that would have consequences to trade arrangements and result in domestic shortages which they are unwilling to bear so we are stuck with the unpalatable situation in which UK producers are not allowed to grown GM but as a country we have to accept at least traces of GM grown crop in imports.

I just fundamentally disagree on carbon tax, I just can not see how it could be practical for the UK to so unilaterally. It would fix nothing without a global consensus on how carbon is calculated and who is responsible for what and where in the supply chain, such calculations are fiendishly complex and countries who's exports come out badly in any carbon calculation are never going to go along with such a scheme.. There are so many variables, at what scale would you apply carbon tax calculation? Does it apply at field level, at farm level, perhaps at state level, at national level or just a blanket average value for all a given imported product regardless of its source? Take your soya, when it all arrives mixed in a boat, a boat that may even have produce or more than one country, how do you identify slash and burn rainforest grown soya and tax it differently to soya grown on land that has been cropped for hundreds of years? Given a boat load of soya may be made up of produce from hundreds or largely untraceable small growers is would be completely impractical for anything other than apply a blanket tax rate for a given product on a country by country basis. If we then apply different carbon tax rates to different countries based on some British civil servants guesswork calculations it would almost certainly be considered illegal under WTO rules.. that only leaves the option of applying a single carbon tax rate to all imports of a given product regardless of origin or actual CO2.... and that is not a carbon tax, it is just new tariffs, and we know both sides of the house seem to be doing all they can do to removal all import tariffs not add new ones.

As I said before, apply the tax to fossil carbon at point of extraction and that 70% increase in the cost of flights or car journeys naturally occurs by default! We have all recently experienced 70% and more increases in the cost of energy and government is now scrambling around looking at ways to try and cut the increased energy cost burden on the public whilst your argument is energy costs need to go up even more. The problem is, as elected politicians understand, when taxation negatively changes peoples standards of living, they quickly find themselves out on rioted streets.
 

Jimdog1

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Devon
I know he works for natural England among other stuff including being a farmer, but it does put it into perspective abit. If you read believed all the threads on here you would think the whole of the UK is being planted with trees and wooly mammoths released.
I believe Natural England have not covered themselves in glory in the efficient application of any of the complex and badly worded schemes they have overseen. I don't believe that what defra are proposing offer value for money for the taxpayer. I don't need to read the forum to have an opinion. Not woolly mammoth - more of a white elephant. 🤔
 

ajd132

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Suffolk
I believe Natural England have not covered themselves in glory in the efficient application of any of the complex and badly worded schemes they have overseen. I don't believe that what defra are proposing offer value for money for the taxpayer. I don't need to read the forum to have an opinion. Not woolly mammoth - more of a white elephant. 🤔
I was simply point out with his figures that the ‘re wilding’ narrative is being exaggerated.
 

Ffermer Bach

Member
Livestock Farmer
I know he works for natural England among other stuff including being a farmer, but it does put it into perspective abit. If you read believed all the threads on here you would think the whole of the UK is being planted with trees and wooly mammoths released.
feels to me like a bit part of West Wales is being planted with trees! And I think the sheep farmers who are losing lambs to sea eagles would feel pretty upset with releases.
 
I think this is quite sensible. There is a lot of over the top doom mongering going on

It’s not doom it’s reality.

1. Subsidy was going irrelevant of brexit.
2. Replace with greening.
3. This allows new trade deals of food in and we send knowledge out.
4. Agriculture shrinks saving billions.
5. Creating a bigger organic market.
6. Food imports carbon footprint is the country of origins problem not ours.
7. The U.K. gov then tells the world we are carbon neutral world leaders.

Brexit just speeded the above up.
Writings been on the wall for 15 years so any farmer who now doesn’t have other sources of income are finished. They were told multiple times to change ……..
 

ajd132

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Suffolk
It’s not doom it’s reality.

1. Subsidy was going irrelevant of brexit.
2. Replace with greening.
3. This allows new trade deals of food in and we send knowledge out.
4. Agriculture shrinks saving billions.
5. Creating a bigger organic market.
6. Food imports carbon footprint is the country of origins problem not ours.
7. The U.K. gov then tells the world we are carbon neutral world leaders.

Brexit just speeded the above up.
Writings been on the wall for 15 years so any farmer who now doesn’t have other sources of income are finished. They were told multiple times to change ……..
Wilding in context of lnr.
 

Jimdog1

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Devon
It’s not doom it’s reality.

1. Subsidy was going irrelevant of brexit.
2. Replace with greening.
3. This allows new trade deals of food in and we send knowledge out.
4. Agriculture shrinks saving billions.
5. Creating a bigger organic market.
6. Food imports carbon footprint is the country of origins problem not ours.
7. The U.K. gov then tells the world we are carbon neutral world leaders.

Brexit just speeded the above up.
Writings been on the wall for 15 years so any farmer who now doesn’t have other sources of income are finished. They were told multiple times to change ……..
Agriculture shrinks saving billions? How do you work that out?
 

Jimdog1

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Devon
Really? Our protesting EU comrades have always prevented the UK Govt doing away with farm support at EU level, and have indeed just agreed a further round of CAP support. Our lot have finally got their way, and can unilaterally hang us out to dry. :(
Removing subs could work as long as you don't do free trade deals opening the door wide to imports at the same time.
 

two-cylinder

Member
Location
Cambridge
Just about every Sub scheme I have lived through to date has gone wrong because it fails to address this vital difference, the results being that one way or another the sub ends up in. the landowners pocket not the farmers - farmers are not landowners and landowners are not farmers ........ but you can be both (as I am)
That only happens if tenants use it to bid up rents
 

YorkshireTom25

Member
Arable Farmer
don’t agree with landowners getting a single £ of taxpayer cash for anything ……. anyone wealthy enough to own land does not need state benefits / welfare payments

BUT - i do think the more land that comes out of production the less competition I have …….. i don’t care about feeding the world as much as I do my own farm profitably
Hang on…. Wealthy enough to own land? If it is inherited it doesnt mean you are ’wealthy‘!!
 

SFI - What % were you taking out of production?

  • 0 %

    Votes: 79 42.7%
  • Up to 25%

    Votes: 64 34.6%
  • 25-50%

    Votes: 30 16.2%
  • 50-75%

    Votes: 3 1.6%
  • 75-100%

    Votes: 3 1.6%
  • 100% I’ve had enough of farming!

    Votes: 6 3.2%

Red Tractor drops launch of green farming scheme amid anger from farmers

  • 1,287
  • 1
As reported in Independent


quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

read the TFF thread here: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/gfc-was-to-go-ahead-now-not-going-ahead.405234/
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