The Perfect Storm

Jackov Altraids · Jan 25, 2022

Ffermer Bach said:
there seem many advantages, however, along with improved communication there seems to be a power shift away from individuals towards both multi national companies and a coterie of very rich individuals who have power above that wielded by elected politicians.

To be honest, I'm struggling to think of many advantages.

It basically leads to homogenisation of societies, cultures, environment etc while fracturing politics and leads to the rise of extremists groups.

It has severely reduced resilience and enabled corporations to bully countries.

In fact, I'm struggling to think of ANY advantages apart from lower costs but even that is borne by the poorest and the environment.

ollie989898 · Jan 25, 2022

What's this, another thread where people are near ecstatic about the thought of modern Britain or the developed world falling into some Dickensian ruin? People dying from hunger in the streets, or scrapping over the odd bit of food waste... come off it guys. I know you all think you'd be doing just fine sat at home with 20 bullocks and 400 tonnes of grain in the shed as the modern world descends into oblivion but the reality is you'd be just as fudged as anyone because there won't be any slaughtermen to prepare your cattle and your Fendt won't start first thing in the morning as you couldn't buy Silver Varta batteries anymore since the factory was burned down by people trying to keep warm.

Globalisation and the spread of modern communications and trade links has lifted billions of people out of poverty. The irony then that it took the Vietnam war to bring forth the processes that started it is pretty strong.

Jackov Altraids · Jan 25, 2022

ollie989898 said:
What's this, another thread where people are near ecstatic about the thought of modern Britain or the developed world falling into some Dickensian ruin? People dying from hunger in the streets, or scrapping over the odd bit of food waste... come off it guys. I know you all think you'd be doing just fine sat at home with 20 bullocks and 400 tonnes of grain in the shed as the modern world descends into oblivion but the reality is you'd be just as fudged as anyone because there won't be any slaughtermen to prepare your cattle and your Fendt won't start first thing in the morning as you couldn't buy Silver Varta batteries anymore since the factory was burned down by people trying to keep warm.

Globalisation and the spread of modern communications and trade links has lifted billions of people out of poverty. The irony then that it took the Vietnam war to bring forth the processes that started it is pretty strong.

Money is a system of comparing wealth.
Globalisation may have technically lifted people out of poverty on paper but they are not necessarily any better off.
In fact their health, happiness and prospects may be worse.
Capitalism and globalisation may have led us away from your dystopian vision but it is also on course to take us back there.

ollie989898 · Jan 25, 2022

Jackov Altraids said:
Money is a system of comparing wealth.
Globalisation may have technically lifted people out of poverty on paper but they are not necessarily any better off.
In fact their health, happiness and prospects may be worse.
Capitalism and globalisation may have led us away from your dystopian vision but it is also on course to take us back there.

I beg to differ, people are better off- thousands of people in the developing world now have access to fresh water, job security, political stability and even reasonably cheap energy/electricity. Are these people earning $3000 a month and driving a BMW? No, not yet, but they are in a heck of a lot better shape than 40 years ago.

Many of the forum will no doubt remember the terrible famine in the 80's in many parts of Africa and the developing world. Today some of these same countries are serious agricultural powerhouses and people aren't going hungry any longer.

Yale · Jan 25, 2022

Broadly everyone apart from the super rich are getting poorer in the UK with less buying power.

The only thing which is keeping the see-saw balanced is house prices.

Its the when not the if the bottom falls out of property we are all stuffed.

We are almost back to the 70’s with a three day week as most of this corporate stuff seems to be failing.

Once Vlad gets going…

ollie989898 · Jan 25, 2022

Yale said:
Broadly everyone apart from the super rich are getting poorer in the UK with less buying power.

The only thing which is keeping the see-saw balanced is house prices.

Its the when not the if the bottom falls out of property we are all stuffed.

we are almost back to the 70’s with a three day week as most of this corporate stuff seems to be failing.

Once Vlad gets going…

You only see things through the prism of a Westerner.

'Less buying power' is hardly a concern of those in the developing world who live on a few dollars a day.

The reality is that if I live in the UK and I am concerned I have 'less buying power', I can choose to go and work more hours a week to obtain more money. It's not like the country is brimming with labour right now, is it?

Yale · Jan 25, 2022

ollie989898 said:
I beg to differ, people are better off- thousands of people in the developing world now have access to fresh water, job security, political stability and even reasonably cheap energy/electricity. Are these people earning $3000 a month and driving a BMW? No, not yet, but they are in a heck of a lot better shape than 40 years ago.

Many of the forum will no doubt remember the terrible famine in the 80's in many parts of Africa and the developing world. Today some of these same countries are serious agricultural powerhouses and people aren't going hungry any longer.

Yes,the rest of the world are getting richer,we are getting poorer.

Where are our government going to hide when it dawns on folk?

holwellcourtfarm · Jan 25, 2022

ollie989898 said:
I beg to differ, people are better off- thousands of people in the developing world now have access to fresh water, job security, political stability and even reasonably cheap energy/electricity. Are these people earning $3000 a month and driving a BMW? No, not yet, but they are in a heck of a lot better shape than 40 years ago.

Many of the forum will no doubt remember the terrible famine in the 80's in many parts of Africa and the developing world. Today some of these same countries are serious agricultural powerhouses and people aren't going hungry any longer.

You mean Ethiopia where 9.4 million suffered famine last year?......

9.4 million people are ‘living their worst nightmare’ in northern Ethiopia due to ongoing conflict

The number of people in need of humanitarian food assistance across northern Ethiopia has spiked as a direct result of ongoing conflict, the United Nations World Food Programme (WFP) said on Friday.

news.un.org

capfits · Jan 25, 2022

Ffermer Bach said:
there seem many advantages, however, along with improved communication there seems to be a power shift away from individuals towards both multi national companies and a coterie of very rich individuals who have power above that wielded by elected politicians.

Ever been thus surely.
East India Company, Aristocracy, Roman Empire and a number before I am sure.
The fact is we are richer, healthier, more cosseted than 95% of the human race that has walked this planet here in the UK.
Globalisation in all it forms has only brought choices and opportunity that previous generations have only dreamed of.
It certainly does not cure all ills, but it can help reduce the impacts if politics allows.
It may be the case that Globalisation is old hat and planetisation may be the new frontier when we have passed.
To many confuse Globalisation with a form Capitalism which funnily many of us here in the UK benefit from having previously trashed others.

Two Tone · Jan 25, 2022

ollie989898 said:
I beg to differ, people are better off- thousands of people in the developing world now have access to fresh water, job security, political stability and even reasonably cheap energy/electricity. Are these people earning $3000 a month and driving a BMW? No, not yet, but they are in a heck of a lot better shape than 40 years ago.

Many of the forum will no doubt remember the terrible famine in the 80's in many parts of Africa and the developing world. Today some of these same countries are serious agricultural powerhouses and people aren't going hungry any longer.

And some of them are rife with corruption, which seems the norm to their societies, both in the population and their Governments!

ollie989898 · Jan 25, 2022

holwellcourtfarm said:
You mean Ethiopia where 9.4 million suffered famine last year?......

9.4 million people are ‘living their worst nightmare’ in northern Ethiopia due to ongoing conflict

The number of people in need of humanitarian food assistance across northern Ethiopia has spiked as a direct result of ongoing conflict, the United Nations World Food Programme (WFP) said on Friday.

news.un.org

That is due to conflict. Globalisation and free trade aren't to blame for that.

spin cycle · Jan 25, 2022

capfits said:
@spin cycle ,Why do you perceive globalisation a disaster?

bitta personal 'hippy' philosophy on my part i suppose...in my view globilisation' prioritises the movement of goods/money/capital and ppl for the sole purpose of increasing more movement of goods/money/capital and ppl,,,,,,the whole cycle being largely based on inflated consumerism that in turn ,whilst admittedly creating wealth, promotes an unhealthy obsession with consumption over and above what is needed and eschews mankind's set of values

SO a few examples...we buy an excess of 'tat' from china.....they buy beef from south america and the rainforests burn
we can't be bothered to make anything preferring airports to factories...17% of uk population make 70% of the flights... yet farming gets the blame for global warming...IIRC only 1-2% of worlds population have ever flown
goods are made in third world sweat shops akin to slavery and £5 trainers become £150 in the shops....can't remember who but i think a basketball player who fronted for nike once earnt more in a year than their entire manufacturing workforce

i must admit i'm a 'hobbit' really....i rarely see beauty in anything man made....had a flock of 200+ lapwings over a field tonight which i'd value far higher than a posh car/fancy holiday or new york shopping trip

Ffermer Bach · Jan 25, 2022

spin cycle said:
bitta personal 'hippy' philosophy on my part i suppose...in my view globilisation' prioritises the movement of goods/money/capital and ppl for the sole purpose of increasing more movement of goods/money/capital and ppl,,,,,,the whole cycle being largely based on inflated consumerism that in turn ,whilst admittedly creating wealth, promotes an unhealthy obsession with consumption over and above what is needed and eschews mankind's set of values

SO a few examples...we buy an excess of 'tat' from china.....they buy beef from south america and the rainforests burn
we can't be bothered to make anything preferring airports to factories...17% of uk population make 70% of the flights... yet farming gets the blame for global warming...IIRC only 1-2% of worlds population have ever flown
goods are made in third world sweat shops akin to slavery and £5 trainers become £150 in the shops....can't remember who but i think a basketball player who fronted for nike once earnt more in a year than their entire manufacturing workforce

i must admit i'm a 'hobbit' really....i rarely see beauty in anything man made....had a flock of 200+ lapwings over a field tonight which i'd value far higher than a posh car/fancy holiday or new york shopping trip

I agree, have seen the Mona Lisa, Pyramids, Tutankhamun's things, Mayan Pyramids, Abu Symbol etc and by far the most wonderful things I have ever seen are the animals in the Rift Valley or diving on the Barrier Reef, or the Giant Redwoods in California.

steveR · Jan 25, 2022

Chae1 said:
That was my thought when I read the opening post too.

Historically I think farming prospers during a recession?

Depends on the definition of recession... Not many farmers were prospering in the late 20s and into the 30s....

Govt just imported food from teh Colonies.

Jam Tomorrow · Jan 25, 2022

Ffermer Bach said:
I agree, have seen the Mona Lisa, Pyramids, Tutankhamun's things, Mayan Pyramids, Abu Symbol etc and by far the most wonderful things I have ever seen are the animals in the Rift Valley or diving on the Barrier Reef, or the Giant Redwoods in California.

He’s in the 1-2% then

Jackov Altraids · Jan 25, 2022

ollie989898 said:
I beg to differ, people are better off- thousands of people in the developing world now have access to fresh water, job security, political stability and even reasonably cheap energy/electricity. Are these people earning $3000 a month and driving a BMW? No, not yet, but they are in a heck of a lot better shape than 40 years ago.

Many of the forum will no doubt remember the terrible famine in the 80's in many parts of Africa and the developing world. Today some of these same countries are serious agricultural powerhouses and people aren't going hungry any longer.

As I said, it has made people better off but then often sets them on a downhill path.
It is the availability of education that is the greatest enabler.
Otherwise, developing countries are given money to buy things off, and keep the developed world ahead.
Not only do we like to offer the poor debt, but diabetes, obesity and the chance to work in the developed world, starving the third world of the professionals they need.

I vividly remember an interview with a Londoner in the '80's. She was praising the councils efforts to clear the slums and offer improved housing. She then became rather animated when she found out that one of the slums to be demolished was her home......
A lot of the people that the privileged feel the need to help, don't want the things offered.

ollie989898 · Jan 25, 2022

Jackov Altraids said:
As I said, it has made people better off but then often sets them on a downhill path.
It is the availability of education that is the greatest enabler.
Otherwise, developing countries are given money to buy things off, and keep the developed world ahead.
Not only do we like to offer the poor debt, but diabetes, obesity and the chance to work in the developed world, starving the third world of the professionals they need.

I vividly remember an interview with a Londoner in the '80's. She was praising the councils efforts to clear the slums and offer improved housing. She then became rather animated when she found out that one of the slums to be demolished was her home......
A lot of the people that the privileged feel the need to help, don't want the things offered.

I probably haven't explained my thinking very well. I don't see that there is any need or even any way of making the entire world, each country, equitable or levelled up or anything. There will always be rich and poor. My focus is on the life of the poor though.

It is widely recognised that if you make the poorest in society a bit wealthier, they will have a better quality of life, have fewer children and there will be less conflict, too.

It is also advantageous (under a capitalist system) for even rich countries to let the less wealthier countries develop- because in time they too become important markets for goods and services. If I am the CEO of Apple, it suits my purposes to have as many of the 7-8 billion people on the planet wealthy enough to buy my goods, rather than just the wealthiest 3 billion.

Key to the development of these countries is political stability, rule of law, trade, and also, energy that is affordable for them.

spin cycle · Jan 25, 2022

as i maintain 'globilisation' isn't doing a great job

Ffermer Bach · Jan 25, 2022

Jam Tomorrow said:
He’s in the 1-2% then

B'o'B · Jan 25, 2022

The Perfect Storm

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100% I’ve had enough of farming!

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