Critical Mass

toquark

Member
I’ve said this before, but the sub 200ac owners have choices to make in coming years; specialise and supply a niche, go part time with lower inputs, or sell up. It’s extremely sad but there you go.

I don’t know what the future will hold but I do firmly believe that fawning over the latest brainwave from DEFRA is a hiding to nothing. Designed to fail? Well, with any luck.

I farm part time largely with skills learned on the job and from friends and colleagues, plus ag college. My father never farmed. I know my limitations, and many experienced stockmen would scoff at my abilities but I get by just fine and I’m happy with my product. I never came into the job even thinking about subsidy and adjusted the system to suit from the outset. It doesn’t make a fortune but even with the small numbers on modest acreage, it turns a profit. In short, I self subsidise and this I think is the future for other new entrants.

@delilah, your post was well thought out and very valid, but I really can’t see any benefit from hobbling a business to suit the political agenda of the day. If you want the tax man’s dollar you have to dance to his tune. If you don’t, you don’t.
 

kiwi pom

Member
Location
canterbury NZ
Just trimmed the hedges of an area today actually, had to stop a contractor young lad came in for another company smacked it all to heck made a mess by the ditch, sent him away.
My sons dont do a crap job like he did as i show them how not to.
Must be his boss isnt concerned about training his employees or perhaps he doesnt even know himself? was a big company as well.
or maybe he told to just 'smack it off boy'
either way they got sent off the job.


I wont have someone telling black is white, crap work is crap work , just because youy riding high and mighty on a Fancy fendt tractor doesnt mean you know what your doing .

enough ?
gets on my tits tbh
Obviously there's rough work and good work and nobody should put up with rough work but I suspect if you started a thread on how to trim a hedge properly or the correct way to maintain a hedge you'd get a lot of different responses.
Hopefully you told them what you wanted before they started.

I've often wondered what would happen if TFF farmers had to work for one another. It might be fun to watch.
 

Bury the Trash

Member
Mixed Farmer
Obviously there's rough work and good work and nobody should put up with rough work but I suspect if you started a thread on how to trim a hedge properly or the correct way to maintain a hedge you'd get a lot of different responses.
Hopefully you told them what you wanted before they started.

I've often wondered what would happen if TFF farmers had to work for one another. It might be fun to watch.
It is a Bosses problem, they should keep an eye on their 'new' employee if they have not done the job before, trim mean just that not smack it off so that the shrubs suffer or die out and all that is left is grass ,cows parsley and nettles....:rolleyes: or dont have a propped face to them .

Possibly on their next job he will have learnt to take less off unless asked otherwise to do so, you can always take more off if required but you cant add it on.

a modern flail hedger is not something that should be sat someone on without proper training simple .

they were subbed to a site next to me whom i dont have total control over, still trimmed them ourselves tho and shall do next year ,they wont be back here whilst im in charge.
 

kiwi pom

Member
Location
canterbury NZ
It is a Bosses problem, they should keep an eye on their 'new' employee if they have not done the job before, trim mean just that not smack it off so that the shrubs suffer or die out and all that is left is grass ,cows parsley and nettles....:rolleyes: or dont have a propped face to them .

Possibly on their next job he will have learnt to take less off unless asked otherwise to do so, you can always take more off if required but you cant add it on.

a modern flail hedger is not something that should be sat someone on without proper training simple .

they were subbed to a site next to me whom i dont have total control over, still trimmed them ourselves tho and shall do next year ,they wont be back here whilst im in charge.
I'd never let somebody cut my hedges (if I had any) without talking to them first and telling them what I wanted, as different people want different things but that's just me. I agree they should know what they're doing. Contractors are only interested in cheap bums on seats these days.
I've a mate back in the UK who cuts a lot of hedges, his first line to a new customer is always "how do you want them, flat or castle topped":ROFLMAO:
 

glasshouse

Member
Location
lothians
There's plenty of people that would be quite happy to farm if the opportunities are there. Its an easier sell these days as it's not the physical job it once was. As long as there's a living to be made, people will do it.
As for the skills needed, I don't see that as too big of a problem either, yes farmers have some skills but they are also just managers, even if they don't have direct employee's. Think about it, vets, mechanics, agronomists, contractors, land agents, accountants, grain merchants, stock agents etc are all bought into the farm to carry out specific tasks. The business owner just steers the ship.
Its common to wonder, how things will be when you're not there, be it a job or business. The reality is, things will be just fine. We're not as important as we think.
If the owner only steers the ship, it will soon sink
 

Bury the Trash

Member
Mixed Farmer
I'd never let somebody cut my hedges (if I had any) without talking to them first and telling them what I wanted, as different people want different things but that's just me. I agree they should know what they're doing. Contractors are only interested in cheap bums on seats these days.
I've a mate back in the UK who cuts a lot of hedges, his first line to a new customer is always "how do you want them, flat or castle topped":ROFLMAO:
The best bit was they had 9t gross outfits with all singing and dancing long reach hegders but couldnt fit all the way down the narrow gaps beside the drainage ditches :rolleyes:

they seem get caught in a vicious circle , , the wider tyres to cope with the extra weight , wider wheel width settings negates the extra 1m plus reach .i suppose if some other outfit has them they got to have them as well .
a lot of what contractors are about is chasing something and not actually applying the correct machine for the job,as longs as its big and shiny .
Too many drivers dont know how to get the best out pof a smmaller tractor either ,let alone a 2wd one. 4wd and size to a degree negates a lot of skill, learning tractor driving should be on small tractors at least.

I nipped in and went around the whole site with a 2wd tractor/hedger that was 3.5 t gross and managed to reach further than they did.:ROFLMAO:
with no deep ruts left on the soft ground or no ditches pressed in from the side.
Actually come to think of it im not sure if you can learn it :cool::D


Seriously though,Soil damage and compaction is a big issue and big kit is the main culprit ime.
 
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Lowland1

Member
Mixed Farmer
I’ve said this before, but the sub 200ac owners have choices to make in coming years; specialise and supply a niche, go part time with lower inputs, or sell up. It’s extremely sad but there you go.

I don’t know what the future will hold but I do firmly believe that fawning over the latest brainwave from DEFRA is a hiding to nothing. Designed to fail? Well, with any luck.

I farm part time largely with skills learned on the job and from friends and colleagues, plus ag college. My father never farmed. I know my limitations, and many experienced stockmen would scoff at my abilities but I get by just fine and I’m happy with my product. I never came into the job even thinking about subsidy and adjusted the system to suit from the outset. It doesn’t make a fortune but even with the small numbers on modest acreage, it turns a profit. In short, I self subsidise and this I think is the future for other new entrants.

@delilah, your post was well thought out and very valid, but I really can’t see any benefit from hobbling a business to suit the political agenda of the day. If you want the tax man’s dollar you have to dance to his tune. If you don’t, you don’t.
That’s nothing new into the 1970’s we had farmers in our village with less than 40 acres doing reasonably well with a few cows and a bit of corn but they were comfortable and didn’t expand and as they got old they packed up. In the ‘70’s and ‘80s our potato harvester struggled to do more than an acre and a half a day so harvesting 30 or 40 acres was a drawn out process putting then over a riddle in the spring at 10-15 tonnes a day was the same. With our pigs all weaners went into loose boxes that needed hand mucking out. No one does those things today because it’s hard work and if you’re are still bucketing water to your pigs you’re mental. If the family farm hasn’t grown then it’s unviable and no level of support can save it.
 

DrWazzock

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lincolnshire
The best bit was they had 9t gross outfits with all singing and dancing long reach hegders but couldnt fit all the way down the narrow gaps beside the drainage ditches :rolleyes:

they seem get caught in a vicious circle , , the wider tyres to cope with the extra weight , wider wheel width settings negates the extra 1m plus reach .i suppose if some other outfit has them they got to have them as well .
a lot of what contractors are about is chasing something and not actually applying the correct machine for the job,as longs as its big and shiny .
Too many drivers dont know how to get the best out pof a smmaller tractor either ,let alone a 2wd one. 4wd and size to a degree negates a lot of skill, learning tractor driving should be on small tractors at least.

I nipped in and went around the whole site with a 2wd tractor/hedger that was 3.5 t gross and managed to reach further than they did.:ROFLMAO:
with no deep ruts left on the soft ground or no ditches pressed in from the side.
Actually come to think of it im not sure if you can learn it :cool::D


Seriously though,Soil damage and compaction is a big issue and big kit is the main culprit ime.
Agree about they vicious circle of power and weight.
The fundamental unavoidable problem is that steel doesn’t get stronger, so as things get bigger you need disproportionately more of it just to hold together the machines “self weight”.
I have winced at the greater compaction impact of every machine we have upsized compared to its predecessor. Going from 12m to 24m tramlines was alright in terms of output but it’s rare to have a year dry enough here when the tramlines aren’t a mess in places despite low pressure tyres etc, all of which consume considerable resource etc.
I’m not convinced by scale myself on many different levels. I’m quite happy with 200 acres but it would help if some of the regulatory busy bodies cut us some slack in terms of admin overhead.
 

delilah

Member
@Janet Hughes Defra

How many roads will farmers have reopened in the last few days ? Hundreds, if not thousands.
For sure, the system would have got there eventually, but if just one lifesaving ambulance or fire engine got through, then a public good has been delivered.
Who will do this once you have achieved your objective of getting rid of all the little people ? Because Tesco delivery vans don't carry chainsaws.

eunice 3.jpg
 
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W
@Janet Hughes Defra

How many roads will farmers have reopened in the last few days ? Hundreds, if not thousands.
For sure, the system would have got there eventually, but if just one lifesaving ambulance or fire engine got through, then a public good has been delivered.
Who will do this once you have achieved your objective of getting rid of all the little people ? Because Tesco delivery vans don't carry chainsaws.

View attachment 1018256
There's absolutely no such objective @delilah, and on this point in particular I've been watching in awe over the weekend, seeing farmers post pictures online of the work they're doing to clear roads, trees, etc
 

Dukes Fit

Member
Location
Aberdeenshire
I sometimes think I've not a clue how to do things compared to the old fellas or yesteryear but then I realise that the skill sets that they had and the ones I have are chalk and cheese.

I've not a clue how to plough with a horse, work a binder, or build a stook but I can use a 5 furrow reversible, drive a modern combine harvester and pull apart, rebuild and repair 99% of machines. The only stuff I can't do are the things that require proprietary software.

Skills evolve and change and yes we have lost some skills, some skills aren't in as much demand as the world has progressed and only come to the fore when something becomes specialist.

But we have gained skills that we didn't have before. It's sad but unfortunately the world is evolving and what was once a common skill sometimes becomes so niche and specialist that it costs money to keep going.
 

Bury the Trash

Member
Mixed Farmer
If you couldn't go with 2wd, then don't go with 4wd.
i didn't necessarily mean that.

I can get along with a 2wd and use effectively where a an inexperienced 2wd driver would be left looking silly.
knowing use of independent brakes and differential lock where appropriate, coupled with correct gear selection and revs .
Too mant nowadays just start driving on greenhouse cabbed semi or auto matic trans. isolated from realities tractors /machines that they dont and will never have the same feel for the job , as a driver who stated with a small 2wd drive tractor.

Also a correctly weight distributed 2wd on suitable application can be used a at much lower costs .
 

bitwrx

Member
There's absolutely no such objective @delilah, and on this point in particular I've been watching in awe over the weekend, seeing farmers post pictures online of the work they're doing to clear roads, trees, etc
If it's not an objective of the scheme, then it certainly seems a pretty obvious unintended consequence.

Larger landholdings will be able to access a greater proportion of the money available. The scheme clearly disadvantages smaller landholdings.
 

delilah

Member
There's absolutely no such objective

We are a pilot (piloting standards that you have now scrapped, but that's by the by).
We are being bombarded by ELMS emails. And I do mean bombarded. My inbox is full of them, largely unread. Latest is a compulsory survey, which we are told will take 1 to 2 hours to complete. The email does helpfully say that you can pass it on to your agent to complete.
I recently asked you to study this document, to help you understand the composition of England's farms, you said that you would do so. If you have then you will understand just how many folks are farming single-handed or maybe with part time help from a spouse.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/666713/structure-june-eng-lessfavouredareas-13dec17.xls#:~:text=Less%20Favoured%20Areas%20(LFA)%20were,Disadvantaged%20Areas'%20(SDA).

The idea that this whole thing isn't biased against the smaller business would be laughable if it wasn't so serious. This whole thing is out of control. You have created a monster.
 

SFI - What % were you taking out of production?

  • 0 %

    Votes: 79 42.0%
  • Up to 25%

    Votes: 66 35.1%
  • 25-50%

    Votes: 30 16.0%
  • 50-75%

    Votes: 3 1.6%
  • 75-100%

    Votes: 3 1.6%
  • 100% I’ve had enough of farming!

    Votes: 7 3.7%

Red Tractor drops launch of green farming scheme amid anger from farmers

  • 1,291
  • 1
As reported in Independent


quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

read the TFF thread here: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/gfc-was-to-go-ahead-now-not-going-ahead.405234/
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