All things Dairy

Cows 'n grass · Apr 24, 2022

Jdunn55 said:
I was only going off what my vets have suggested to do
I'm at a bit of a loss

The following is going to be controversial

I can calve outside on this farm during June-July, maybe may and August

Every other month will result in dead calves

This farm resembles Scotland more than it does cornwall, I farm the second highest point in Cornwall and its bitterly cold 75% of the year, and wet. But it grows grass. It also grows rushes for a past time. Nothing on the hedges grows, I might get a gorse Bush if I'm lucky

I had to drag my fencing contractor out of one of the fields the other day as he had sunk
In his words he has never fenced such a wet farm

Dad's is the polar opposite, he farms 10 minutes away. It is just a very difficult farm

One option is to calve much later, say may-july? Roddas would be ecstatic if I did, I could probably calve outside, I can make a big cut of silage when the cows are dry in april-may on the half of the farm that I can cut and the other half I could graze with youngstock

I could also plant fodder beet to graze during the winter along with maize to feed during the winter too

Yes I am grasping at straws

I don't know your farm but @Dead Rabbits manages to calve outside in -20 ice storms and gets away with it (it looks fekin miserable for the people involved though). You're in West Cornwall; you, your cows and your calves would be absolutely fine calving outside.

Your cows are calving fine indoors though and that is not your current problem, If halocur / parafor is not saving your calves then I wouldn't be so confident that it's crypto killing them. What age are they dying? All of this is just fine tuning and most of us have been through it, you don't need to be considering massive system changes just to improve calf health.

Have your vets rules out mycoplasma?

Jdunn55 · Apr 24, 2022

Cows 'n grass said:
I don't know your farm but @Dead Rabbits manages to calve outside in -20 ice storms and gets away with it (it looks fekin miserable for the people involved though). You're in West Cornwall; you, your cows and your calves would be absolutely fine calving outside.

Your cows are calving fine indoors though and that is not your current problem, If halocur / parafor is not saving your calves then I wouldn't be so confident that it's crypto killing them. What age are they dying? All of this is just fine tuning and most of us have been through it, you don't need to be considering massive system changes just to improve calf health.

Have your vets rules out mycoplasma?

I mentioned calving outside and my vets looked like I'd slapped them

Anything between 5 days and 4 weeks, running around one day, the next day not drinking, lethargic, barely able to stand and then dead within 12 hours

Not sure about mycoplasma, I would assume its been tested for but couldn't guarantee it, I'll ask tomorrow though.

It's just completely depressing having good calves die and feeling completely helpless as there doesn't seem to be any sort of solution

In the pit · Apr 24, 2022

Sounds more like ecoli first weakening them and crypto and the likes piggy backing onto it

som farmer · Apr 24, 2022

Tsa115 said:
rotavec does wonders here. had a bad spell with crypto begining of winter , did not rotavec heifers before calving, Vet rekoned we needed to halocur every calf for a while too get over it, next day re rotaveced every dry cow and heifer and it seriously improved, used some halocure but ditched it after a week.
Surely it is fairly forgiving land if you can graze fodder beet in winter and grow maize though,

l have no idea why rota vac is so successful, in theory it should only protect v r c. What it does appear to do, is give the calf a serious health boost at birth. We use it as standard on the vast majority, and if a cow is missed, the calf shows it. We have used it for years, ever since a crypto breakdown, halocur is available if we panic, we only have once.

You are lucky enough to have a farm, what you need to do, is work your farming system, in the best way, your land will let you. Its no good milking 8000 litre holstiens, if they can't stand up, in the wind, look what the previous farmer did, he had it pretty well sorted out, why break a good system ? Bought a big bunch of milkers, not over far from you, all fr type, with some jersey. Bleak, couldn't even hear clearly, to use my mobile, had to 'hide' to hear, Walls, gorse were there, with fantastic views. That farmer had it worked out, good solid long lasting cows, that on better ground, easily 8-9000 litres.

You can only do, what your farm will let you. You cannot beat nature. Nor can you learn, what it will let you do, if you keep swapping things around.
And the best way to learn, is to look at the previous farmer, did he make a good success ? If he did, there's your starting point, why mend, what's not broken ? That's the problem with youth, you think the 'worlds' yours to do want you want, as you get older, you learn that's not true ! Slow down, stop and think, and plan.

Jdunn55 · Apr 24, 2022

In the pit said:
Sounds more like ecoli first weakening them and crypto and the likes piggy backing onto it

I've tested for ecoli lots and lots of times now though and they have all been negative?

TheRanger · Apr 24, 2022

We calve everything outside for 5 months of the year, in the coldest wettest corner of Scotland.

coomoo · Apr 24, 2022

TheRanger said:
We calve everything outside for 5 months of the year, in the coldest wettest corner of Scotland.

…. or the land of milk and honey you devil

In the pit · Apr 24, 2022

Jdunn55 said:
I've tested for ecoli lots and lots of times now though and they have all been negative?

That’s the trouble with testing!!

Jdunn55 · Apr 24, 2022

In the pit said:
That’s the trouble with testing!!

What do you mean?

Boo-Boo · Apr 24, 2022

Jdunn55 said:
I mentioned calving outside and my vets looked like I'd slapped them

Anything between 5 days and 4 weeks, running around one day, the next day not drinking, lethargic, barely able to stand and then dead within 12 hours

Not sure about mycoplasma, I would assume its been tested for but couldn't guarantee it, I'll ask tomorrow though.

It's just completely depressing having good calves die and feeling completely helpless as there doesn't seem to be any sort of solution

I asked you this already but you didn’t reply. Has your vet taken blood samples from young calves to see what levels of antibodies your calves have built up from getting colostrum. If your colostrum is not doing the job it should, then the calves are off to a bad start. We had a similar problem to yours a few years ago . Calves getting scoured at 10 days, lost a few , samples showed crypto, all calves had got plenty of colostrum but the baffling thing was that when he blood tested the calves for antibody levels, they were shockingly low . The problem appeared to be the cows were suffering from IBR symptoms and their colostrum was compromised. . So we borrowed from a neighbor for the next few while the cows were vaccinated for ibr and started using halocur

Jdunn55 · Apr 24, 2022

TheRanger said:
We calve everything outside for 5 months of the year, in the coldest wettest corner of Scotland.

I've got my fencing contractors here tomorrow so I'll get them to do the field by the house and I'll have them out by the end of the day, what do I do with the calves once they're born? Bring them in? Leave them in the field? Move to a different field (would have to get another one fenced but not a big issue)?

In the pit · Apr 24, 2022

Because ecoli could start you’re problems then crypto put the calf on the floor, you take your sample and no ecoli but lots of crypto

Jdunn55 said:
What do you mean?

Jdunn55 · Apr 24, 2022

Boo-Boo said:
I asked you this already but you didn’t reply. Has your vet taken blood samples from young calves to see what levels of antibodies your calves have built up from getting colostrum. If your colostrum is not doing the job it should, then the calves are off to a bad start. We had a similar problem to yours a few years ago . Calves getting scoured at 10 days, lost a few , samples showed crypto, all calves had got plenty of colostrum but the baffling thing was that when he blood tested the calves for antibody levels, they were shockingly low . The problem appeared to be the cows were suffering from IBR symptoms and their colostrum was compromised. . So we borrowed from a neighbor for the next few while the cows were vaccinated for ibr and started using halocur

Sorry, yes done antibody tests, all except one was fine, the calf that was low is still living, the one with the best results is dead

Cows screened quarterly for ibr (individual tests done via milk recording) 0 in the herd but going to start vaccinating as an insurance policy

Jdunn55 · Apr 24, 2022

In the pit said:
Because ecoli could start you’re problems then crypto put the calf on the floor, you take your sample and no ecoli but lots of crypto

The ecoli would still be positive though? The sample would be positive for ecoli and crypto?

In the pit · Apr 24, 2022

Your calves are picking up the disease at calving not in your calf shed , so by the time there treated you’ve already lost the battle because it’s got right into them

TheRanger · Apr 24, 2022

Jdunn55 said:
I've got my fencing contractors here tomorrow so I'll get them to do the field by the house and I'll have them out by the end of the day, what do I do with the calves once they're born? Bring them in? Leave them in the field? Move to a different field (would have to get another one fenced but not a big issue)?

The main thing it would rule out is the calves picking up something in the calving pen. We still try and snatch replacement heifer calves at grass (within reason). Beef ones brought in within 24hrs.

TheRanger · Apr 24, 2022

In the pit said:
Your calves are picking up the disease at calving not in your calf shed , so by the time there treated you’ve already lost the battle because it’s got right into them

This is the most plausible explanation I think, since they've went down with it in various different calf sheds/setups

Jdunn55 · Apr 24, 2022

TheRanger said:
The main thing it would rule out is the calves picking up something in the calving pen. We still try and snatch replacement heifer calves at grass (within reason). Beef ones brought in within 24hrs.

So realistically I would have to keep the calves out too? As whatever is in my calving pen will most likely be in the calf shed as the calves will have transfered it across?

In the pit · Apr 24, 2022

We had ecoli in calves and they were dying a 10/21 days old with ecoli which weakend them and other infections killed them

In the pit · Apr 24, 2022

Jdunn55 said:
So realistically I would have to keep the calves out too? As whatever is in my calving pen will most likely be in the calf shed as the calves will have transfered it across?

Separate pens at different end of shed should be okay

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