Mr Mackay
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- HMP Slade , Shropshire
Careful now
The war in Ukraine...
- Thread starter Danllan
- Start date
JohnGalway
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- Connemara, Ireland
Can agree Putin is what you would call a monster but does that without doubt make all Russians monsters too, Putin might argue he was defending his territory, didn't we argue that we invaded Iraq because some madman half way around the world might have had weapons that might endanger us & the Americans sometime, wasn't exactly on either of our borders was it?
I'm sure if you were an Iraqi when the missiles started falling on their heads Bush & Blair were considered monsters as well to them but did that make all of us monsters as well, there comes a point in war where the lines seem to get well & truly blurred.
JohnGalway
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- Connemara, Ireland
This really is worth watching, truth on russian TV
Mr Mackay
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- HMP Slade , Shropshire
He has commented before ,in a reasoned manner IIRC , as that female presenter tries whipping the others into a frenzy - the auld ****
Danllan
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- Sir Gar / Carms
It's a blessing, or perhaps a great pity, that this fellow isn't in the Kremlin running things there.
Clever chap, he knows what he's talking about, expresses himself well, and wasn't deflected by the chick from the Putin fan club. The faces of the other fellows there said it all, they couldn't argue with a word he said and they were as miserable as sin because they knew all to be true.
This is the sort of thing, and quality of man, that gives one hope that if Putin did try to bring on Armageddon, saner heads would step in at some point and call a halt to things; I hope he stays healthy.
JohnGalway
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- Connemara, Ireland
JohnGalway
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- Location
- Connemara, Ireland
An interesting view on these realistic pundits - Right, that didn't take properly, look down in the comments to Arcadiy Ivanov
Danllan
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- Sir Gar / Carms
I've given the matter some consideration, and I have come to the conclusion that an absolutely key reason that Putin didn't attempt all this before, was because there were a significant number of senior military officers from Soviet times still around, until recently.
Now, bear with me... I'm not going to claim that the USSR was in any way a great place, but its forces did select and promote on merit in the vast majority of cases; and anyone reaching above field rank would have to have been both bright and possessed of notable charisma and gravitas.
Putin never made it higher than Colonel, and he would have looked ridiculous trying to boss around men who were demonstrably his superior in most ways. But they've died off, and he's taken his chance while he still can.
It might have worked, if the Ukrainians hadn't fought like Hell over the first days, and if President Zelensky had gapped it, we would almost certainly be seeing a Russian-run Ukraine now. But none of that happened, so we are where we are.
While on the subject of remembering acts of aggression, you failed to mention that Sadam Hussein had invaded Iran in 1980, and Kuwait ten years later. Nobody cared too much about the Iran/Iraq war but the invasion of Kuwait brought a swft response. Hussein was a true aggressor and a murdering oppressor of cultural and religious minorities so don`t hold him up as being a downtrodden hero. He was a dictator and , like Putin was not a freely elected leader of his people.
The second Iraq war was planned over a long period by Bush and Blair inspite of the fact that the weapons inspectors could provide little evidence to support the action. Whether Hussein would have been able to revert to his old aggressive stance if he had not been removed is open to conjecture but Blair and Bush did not cover themselves in glory. However their objectives bear no comparison to those of Putin and provide an irrelevant counter argument.
You also conveniently ignore the fact that Soviet Russia invaded Afghanistan in 1979 under highly tenuous pretexts and in spite of worldwide condemnation. There are certain familiar similarities with the Ukraine situation.
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I could point out that when the Russians invaded Afghanistan to defeat the Taliban the US rushed weapons & funds to the Taliban to help to defeat the Russian invasion, when the US invaded Afghanistan because the very same Taliban suddenly became seen as a danger in the eyes of the US I don’t remember any mention of Russia arming the Taliban against the US.
America’s foreign policy is mired in crass mistakes & from what I have been told this is just the latest in a long line of cock ups.
I could also mention that the weapons inspector David Kelly who very vocally said there were no weapons of mass destruction before the Iraq war started conveniently suddenly committed suicide by “cutting “ his wrists with a pocket knife that wouldn’t cut butter, bit more discrete than novachok I guess!
Todays friend is tomorrow’s enemy it would seem!
”Margaret Thatcher’s government was covertly supplying military equipment to Iraq as early as 1981, according to newly released government documents. Secret files made public on Friday contain an exhaustive list of equipment from Hawk fighter jets to military air and naval bases that the government was attempting to sell Saddam Hussein’s regime. This came despite the fact that the UK was officially neutral in the Iran-Iraq war, which begun in late 1980. Britain had also signed up to a UN Security Council resolution calling on its members to “refrain from any act which may lead to a further escalation and widening of the conflict”. The list shows 78 different types of military equipment including Land Rovers, tank recovery vehicles, terrain-following radar and spare tank parts that were in the process of being sold. Not all the sales on the list were completed. All the equipment on the sales list was technically “non-lethal”, although equipment such as tank parts stretched the definition.”
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My thoughts on David Kelly agree with yours I feel. The Russian invasion of Afghanistan initially had nothing directly to do with the Taliban who were indeed later supported by the west in their fight against the Russian imposed puppet government. It was again war at arms length as far as the west were concerned but the Taliban had their own motives and still have to this day.
The invasion has roots in Russian history before the Soviet era but you, once again, have latched onto a red herring.
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The US view of the world is full of red herrings it seems!
Thr Russian invasion of Afghanistan is considered by many to have had grave economic consequences for the Russian economy and a breakup of the Soviet Union. If you want to involve the Taliban it may be considered that they achieved this with support from the west. Russia has displayed aggressive expansionist tendencies through Czarist times, Soviet times and now in the present situation. There is something in their psyche, whether it be an inferiority complex or not, which leads them back down the same path time and again. They are continually seeing skeletons in the cupboard where no skeletons exist. Perhaps you could research this instead of suggesting that their victims just roll over.
Not sure many of their victims have rolled over, quite the opposite in fact which makes you think they might have learnt a lesson or two before this present escapade, we obviously have somewhat different views on this but as I have said before from what I have been told there is much more back ground to this then we are being led to believe.
I guess you could say the same for US foreign policy re skeletons?
To be fair most countries have skeletons from history that could be used as an excuse for starting violence , in the UK some scots want independence and dont accept the union, some welsh have burnt English owned homes, then of course there us Ireland, against that we could say we owe the French for 1066 or the Roman's for invading us etc etc. The world and history moves on but it's always a handy excuse for extremists to say they are just righting historic wrongs.
Devil's advocate
Member
- Location
- Posh side of Barnsley
You forgot the Vikings.
The Normans were descended from Vikings as are the Russians.
Bloody Vikings have a lot to answer for.
Wuffler
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- Northumberland
The Soviet army fought the Mujahideen, the Taliban were formed after the withdrawal of their forces.
It was the Mujahideen whom were supported by the west, not the Taliban.
You are strictly correct but I could not spell the M word.
renewablejohn
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- lancs
If you all want to write this historical garbage of other wars then get your own thread and clutter it up but dont take away the importance of this thread which should be ALL about what is happening in Ukraine.