lazy farmer
Member
- Location
- som/dor border
this may have come up before but have just come across the idea of CMTing high cell cows at drying off and just treating the infected quarter(s) rather than all 4. any thoughts @bovine,anyone?
I do all my selective DCT based on CMT alone because I'm not milk recording.
CMT will only react at SCC's of 400+ so it depends what your thresholds for treatment is.
No - don't treat at the cow level. The risk of the cow having an infection in another quarter is much greater when she already has 1 infected. You can spread locally in the udder, via teat prep and the milk pools from all 4 quarters in the cluster.this may have come up before but have just come across the idea of CMTing high cell cows at drying off and just treating the infected quarter(s) rather than all 4. any thoughts @bovine,anyone?
Then you are brave. It's not a good enough test in cows at drying off to reliably detect infected quarters.I do all my selective DCT based on CMT alone because I'm not milk recording.
CMT will only react at SCC's of 400+ so it depends what your thresholds for treatment is.
why is cows n grass brave if it works for him and he's within his level of SCC for his milk buyer carry on .To much pressure from vets like yourself to make farmers use more antibiotics keeping unessary low levels of SCC makes no odds to the milk quality !Always used as a tool to beat farmers with an excuse to cut the milk price paid .The hole industry is led with advertising for dairy famers to buy products that will cure this ,cure that ,produce more .Take a look at Fw .None of it has benefited the majority ,Just industrialised cows that only last 3 lactations and never feel the sun on their backs!And a crap milk price if your not on a direct contract!Then you are brave. It's not a good enough test in cows at drying off to reliably detect infected quarters.
In conclusion, only CMT was not adequate to determine subclinical intramammary infections at the dry-off cows, and to evaluate the findings of CMT with the results of bacteriological examination. http://www.cabdirect.org/abstracts/20143217278.html;jsessionid=5D16A86A3743B74E9615D636F9019A79It will give you both false positive (ie classify a cow as high SCC when she is not) and false negative (ie classify a cow as not infected when she is).
The study I linked found it 50% effective - ie no better than a guess!
I wouldn't dream of basing the decision over selective dry cow on CMT alone. Some vets seem to be advocating a 'quick check' with CMT on suitable low SCC cows - this also muddies the water unnecessarily, and suggests they don't really understand how the tests work.
thank you for your input its nice to be able to back up what our own vet is saying. we will continue with what works for us. anything over 200 cells and/or has had a clinical case and 1 or 2 old ladies. It has been mentioned earlier in this thread that an antibiotic tube followed by a teat sealer does not seal the teat as well as a teat sealant on its own due to a chemical reaction I presume. Is there any evidence of this happening on farm ?No - don't treat at the cow level. The risk of the cow having an infection in another quarter is much greater when she already has 1 infected. You can spread locally in the udder, via teat prep and the milk pools from all 4 quarters in the cluster.
Either the cow is infected or not.
Andrew ran through his best practise protocol for drying cows off in order to minimise the risk of introducing bacteria.Pre-dip, with a proper pre-dip product is vital. Allowing to dry after cleaning with surgical spirit is also vital - wet surgical spirit is not a disinfectant. It kills bugs by drying them out.
"Firstly start with a teat clean enough that you'd be happy to put it in your mouth!" he jokes. "Remove all signs of muck on the teats. Always remember to clean the teats furthest away from you first, followed by the near ones. When you're tubing the cows reverse this order. This reduces the risk of introducing infection by brushing your hands against, and contaminating, clean teats. Then do the following:
http://dairy.ahdb.org.uk/news/techn...answer-isnt-in-a-tube-or-bottle/#.Vkj8_r9Q2fI
- Pre dip and leave the udder for 30 seconds before wiping dry
- Clean the teat with surgical spirit and cotton wool and leave to dry
- Strip the teat to remove bugs from the milk canal
- Clean the teat again with surgical spirit and leave to dry
- Use the antibiotic on all four quarters
- Clean the teat again, using surgical spirit, if you are going to use a teat sealant
It is vital to pinch the top of the teat when infusing teat sealant.
It is vital to re disinfect the teat after the antibiotic, if you are then infusing teat sealant.
It is vital if the cow moves or kicks the teats you START AGAIN at dipping.
Gloves must me worn and must be spotless throughout.
Post dip afterwards and stand the cows for 30 minutes.
Never do it in a foot crush.
It has been mentioned earlier in this thread that an antibiotic tube followed by a teat sealer does not seal the teat as well as a teat sealant on its own due to a chemical reaction I presume. Is there any evidence of this happening on farm ?
why is cows n grass brave if it works for him and he's within his level of SCC for his milk buyer carry on .To much pressure from vets like yourself to make farmers use more antibiotics keeping unessary low levels of SCC makes no odds to the milk quality !Always used as a tool to beat farmers with an excuse to cut the milk price paid .The hole industry is led with advertising for dairy famers to buy products that will cure this ,cure that ,produce more .Take a look at Fw .None of it has benefited the majority ,Just industrialised cows that only last 3 lactations and never feel the sun on their backs!And a crap milk price if your not on a direct contract!
???
He's brave because he is using a test to decide whether he needs to do something that is not reliable in its outcome. He could just as well toss a coin to decide.
He's got a low cell count so its likely that the majority of cows will not need antibiotic. If you miss an odd cow that would have benefited from antibiotic the world won't end - she might even self cure.
I want him to milk record and use that information to make decisions. How anyone can properly manage the herd without that information I really don't know. Using the CMT is pretty pointless. That is my point.
I also do them straight after milking. Unit off in goes the Antibiotic then the sealant then spray I make sure I don't touch the orifice. I must admit I don't even use the medicated wipes. SCC running anywhere between 80 and 200. Can't understand what all the fuss is about, but maybe we've just got a low mastitis burden on the cows. Planning to start selective therapy but only on the very lowest SCC cows just as a trial to see how we go. Not keen to be honest but if we've got to do it in the future i'd like to have an idea of how we're going to cope.
I also do them straight after milking. Unit off in goes the Antibiotic then the sealant then spray I make sure I don't touch the orifice. I must admit I don't even use the medicated wipes.
Can't understand what all the fuss is about, but maybe we've just got a low mastitis burden on the cows.
Planning to start selective therapy but only on the very lowest SCC cows just as a trial to see how we go. Not keen to be honest but if we've got to do it in the future i'd like to have an idea of how we're going to cope.
I said from the outset that it wasn't ideal but for you to compare CMT to a coin toss is complete bollock$.
Its something I've done for some time now and there are many thousands of cows dried off around here using the same method. With a whole herd of stale cows giving bugger all milk my SCC is 203 at the moment. .
I do intend to start milk recording again but at current milk prices its all but impossible to justify the £10k I need for the sampling gear let along the extra money and extra labour required for the sampling itself..
CellSense is a product that has been around for years now. The creators of this and customers obviously have a little more faith in CMT than you.
You sumbed it up pretty well with the words client .You have a vested interest in making farmers use antibiotics .You have a low cell count so the great majority of your cows are uninfected. Do you take mastitis cases into account or simply use the CMT? I suspect you could do away with the CMT and put antibiotic in only cows free from mastitis and still get good results.....
I do appreciate that is a barrier. I don't know how many cows you have, but the savings in dry cow tubes can certainly contribute to that.
CMT is a useful test for some things. It is widely regarded as being unreliable in early and late lactation. It's main use is identifying infected quarters in cows with a high composite cell count. I use it mainly for identifying subclinical quarters for sampling. These automatic CMT gadgets are ok and give you a ball park figure - but they will also be less reliable early and late in lactation. We have some guys on robots with similar systems and the true cell counts do vary quite a lot in later lactation! You also get some cows that the kit repeatedly believes are high, but that is not reflected in the cell count.
The reason I am emphasising this is not because I don't believe you technically can use CMT to decide which cows to give antibiotic - it is that the test is not good enough to use that way. Someone else could come along and read your post and think 'this sounds like a good idea'. It's not. Practical experience of the CMT agrees. The published research shows it is not good enough to use. Personally I would strongly advise a client of mine against doing so.
paranoia/cynicism is not healthy.You sumbed it up pretty well with the words client .You have a vested interest in making farmers use antibiotics .
You sumbed it up pretty well with the words client .You have a vested interest in making farmers use antibiotics .