Penalty points and rules anomalies

Howard150 said:

I think you will find that this has been in the rules for match ploughing since before you were a twinkle in dads eye, even before reversibles came into common usage. Commercial ploughing does not even come into it.
I personally think it is a rule worth keeping as it actually defines your piece of work and gives continuity of middle work from your crown right to the furrow wall of the finish.

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Yes, for rules I can see the reason, but for commercial ploughing as Kenham states, they'd just alternate with each bout...no technical reason for ploughing towards your cop is there?

Howard150 said:

Whilst we are on about the rule book.......

The greatest travesty on the scoresheet by far is the aspect 'General Appearance'. Correct me if I am wrong but this is one aspect that the scoresheet in an honest mans world of ploughing can well do without.
How can a judge award 12's & 15's throughout the plot and then go on to award a 7 for general appearance, or even worse a 4. Believe you me it happens. It also happens that the same judge may award an abysmal plot 3 or 4 plots away as many as 13 or 14. I see no good reason for this anomaly apart from the powers that be manipulating results in order to pick winners.
Surely all the aspects have been judged already?
If you think about it then an average of the points cannot be altogether correct either. Surely best to ban it altogether. After all it is a fairly recent addition to the rule book.
Your thoughts please gentlemen.

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...but if there was no general appearance score how could the judge officially bodge the results so the right man won???

Fergie Ploughman said:

...but if there was no general appearance score how could the judge officially bodge the results so the right man won???

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That's the whole point of this thread. Whilst still possible to pick a winner without general appearance, it is much more difficult. Let's face it - all the majority of ploughmen want is a little honesty.

Love them or loathe them, the man who actually won the match should be the one taking the trophy home, not somebody put there by a rogue judge or corrupt administration.

Some wise words in the last few posts, I have always said the general appearance rule should never have been introduced. The main reason for having to use the countback down here is because although there is 20 points to be used most judges only score between 12 to 16 on every ploughman. I think marking the score sheets with an ordinary pencil should not be allowed and the sheets should be put on display for all to see at the end of the day. Too many times I have seen the numbers rubbed out and altered.

Altered sheets scream FIX! If a mistake is made, its far better to write out a new sheet. The problems arise when judges judge one man against another, rather than against a known standard. You can tell when this is happening, the judges spend much time running up and down the headland!( its always the headland, they dont know they are supposed to walk the work!)

for sale
international B275 with vari touch hydraulics new tyres all round, starts first time every time, C/W Ransomes TS86 match plough with As new RWM bodies and a second pair of legs fitted with TCN kristeel boards with very little wear, new discs and Bearings, new genuine landslides fitted, a very straight plough and tractor, ready to go match ploughing
£6250 for the pair, can deliver at cost after cleared funds have been paid

NOW SOLD

Pennine Ploughing said:

for sale
international B275 with vari touch hydraulics new tyres all round, starts first time every time, C/W Ransomes TS86 match plough with As new RWM bodies and a second pair of legs fitted with TCN kristeel boards with very little wear, new discs and Bearings, new genuine landslides fitted, a very straight plough and tractor, ready to go match ploughing
£6250 for the pair, can deliver at cost after cleared funds have been paid

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Absolute bargain for someone!!!!

Pennine Ploughing said:

for sale
international B275 with vari touch hydraulics new tyres all round, starts first time every time, C/W Ransomes TS86 match plough with As new RWM bodies and a second pair of legs fitted with TCN kristeel boards with very little wear, new discs and Bearings, new genuine landslides fitted, a very straight plough and tractor, ready to go match ploughing
£6250 for the pair, can deliver at cost after cleared funds have been paid

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Whats this got to do with penalty points and anomalies, even rules?
At a loss

in reply to the 5 that have PM me about the tractor and plough for sale, all replies have been short, and all asking 1 thing, have you got any pictures of the tractor and plough, and no other questions,
why do they ask this, well its simple, they want to know what the general appearance is of what is on offer,
general appearance is used in judging what ever is on offer or for sale, be it a car, tractor, house or anything for that matter, so why should it not be used at a ploughing match, it has been on the score sheet for a long time now, and i see no reason for it to be taken off, if the judge thinks its good or bad he will mark it as he thinks fit,

however to follow on from this, the general appearance is the last thing to be marked, and cannot be done till after the whole of the plot is finished, so there would be no good reason why the judges could swap with other judges from other classes and judge general appearance only of other plots that they have not judged,
i do think that there is some judges out there that is not up to the mark, and are far away from todays style of ploughing, they may have been good when they ploughed 40 odd years ago, but times have moved on since then,
there is no reason why the judges could do half of the judging then swap classes if that was you please more people,
but i think general appearance should stay on the score sheet

I can see your point, but those who ask have not seen your tractor before. Your ploughing has already been seen and judged , why judge it a second time? Because with the countback system it just makes it easy to decide who you wanted to win anyway. That's what happens here too often.

Pennine Ploughing said:

in reply to the 5 that have PM me about the tractor and plough for sale, all replies have been short, and all asking 1 thing, have you got any pictures of the tractor and plough, and no other questions,
why do they ask this, well its simple, they want to know what the general appearance is of what is on offer,
general appearance is used in judging what ever is on offer or for sale, be it a car, tractor, house or anything for that matter, so why should it not be used at a ploughing match, it has been on the score sheet for a long time now, and i see no reason for it to be taken off, if the judge thinks its good or bad he will mark it as he thinks fit,

however to follow on from this, the general appearance is the last thing to be marked, and cannot be done till after the whole of the plot is finished, so there would be no good reason why the judges could swap with other judges from other classes and judge general appearance only of other plots that they have not judged,
i do think that there is some judges out there that is not up to the mark, and are far away from todays style of ploughing, they may have been good when they ploughed 40 odd years ago, but times have moved on since then,
there is no reason why the judges could do half of the judging then swap classes if that was you please more people,
but i think general appearance should stay on the score sheet

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Perhaps we should introduce a Sales & wanted aspect possibly coupled with terms and conditions.

Perhaps also John, if you had ever qualified and ploughed at the National you would realise that there are two judges at each end of the plot with aspects split between them. The mechanics of this contradict your view with regard to judges imposing general appearance on scores already given by another judge. It already happens. I am still unaware of where you found that point in this thread.

Whilst general appearance might well have been a feature on the score sheet since you havebeen ploughing, there are a good number of us who were ploughing long before it came into being. It was not needed then every bit as much as it is not needed now.

Whilst I agree that there are people who ploughed 40 years ago who are not up to speed, then it is pointless to have a category that they are not fit to judge, after all, finding judges for the 20 odd competitors at your matches is significantly different than finding judges for matches with 100 competitors. Naturally most of judges at larger matches are retired ploughmen. Quite frankly your idea of the all the competitors judging their own class is another non starter.

Whilst we are on about aged ploughmen who no longer plough, the body of men who make the rules is mainly composed of people who fall into this category. Are you saying that they don't really know what they are doing?

My earlier question still stands. If you want to sell something then advertise where it will be on view to a wider audience, not in a forum where people are trying to discuss anomalies on a score sheet - phantom sales item or otherwise.

Howard150 said:

Perhaps we should introduce a Sales & wanted aspect possibly coupled with terms and conditions.

Perhaps also John, if you had ever qualified and ploughed at the National you would realise that there are two judges at each end of the plot with aspects split between them. The mechanics of this contradict your view with regard to judges imposing general appearance on scores already given by another judge. It already happens. I am still unaware of where you found that point in this thread.

Whilst general appearance might well have been a feature on the score sheet since you havebeen ploughing, there are a good number of us who were ploughing long before it came into being. It was not needed then every bit as much as it is not needed now.

Whilst I agree that there are people who ploughed 40 years ago who are not up to speed, then it is pointless to have a category that they are not fit to judge, after all, finding judges for the 20 odd competitors at your matches is significantly different than finding judges for matches with 100 competitors. Naturally most of judges at larger matches are retired ploughmen. Quite frankly your idea of the all the competitors judging their own class is another non starter.

Whilst we are on about aged ploughmen who no longer plough, the body of men who make the rules is maily composed of people who fall into this category. Are you saying that they don't really know what they are doing?

My earlier qustion still stands. If you want to sell spmething then advertise where it will be on view to a wider audience, not in a forum where people are trying to discuss anomalies on a score sheet - phantom sales item or otherwise.

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thanks David for you reply was put to the open forum, but since you have quoted me then I will reply to you,
you can be very condecending at times, and I am fully aware of how the judging is done at the national as I have plough there before, and know how many judges there is,
as for finding judges for a local match, then you need to look very close to home, and get you own house in order,
as for self judging by ploughmen at our match, they don't judge there own class, but instead they judge a different class, so once again you are wrong,
as for the older ploughmen that are retired making the rules, maybe there is just not enough good younger ploughmen wanting to be directors,
and before you start on about the ones that got voted off, and really you were campain on here for them, have all gone quiet and have accepted it, but you are still going hammering away, David this is not doing you any good, but it is freedom of speech on here so you just carry on

Pennine Ploughing said:

thanks David for you reply was put to the open forum, but since you have quoted me then I will reply to you,
you can be very condecending at times, and I am fully aware of how the judging is done at the national as I have plough there before, and know how many judges there is,
as for finding judges for a local match, then you need to look very close to home, and get you own house in order,
as for self judging by ploughmen at our match, they don't judge there own class, but instead they judge a different class, so once again you are wrong,
as for the older ploughmen that are retired making the rules, maybe there is just not enough good younger ploughmen wanting to be directors,
and before you start on about the ones that got voted off, and really you were campain on here for them, have all gone quiet and have accepted it, but you are still going hammering away, David this is not doing you any good, but it is freedom of speech on here so you just carry on

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Thank you for taking the time to reply.

As far as condecension is concerned, then look no further than your own posts on here, most of them with the added bonus of being delivered in your own inimitable way from your supposed moral high ground.

As far as finding judges for a local match is concerned then you have managed to turn a simple statement of fact into a smear. The original post simply highlighted the scale of task in finding judges for a match of 20 ploughmen against finding judges for a match of 100 ploughmen. Thank you, but according to majority opinion my house is quite in order.

At no time did I ever suggest that a different judge be used for marking general appearance. I did however point out that this is currently what happens at the national ploughing competition.

Your attempt to hijack the thread with a bogus sales item was rather a cheap shot. As Kenham so rightly intimates on here, the judges have already looked at the work for 4 hours. Why the need to re analyse it especially where corruption is apt to creep in.

This being an open forum you also have a right to your own opinion. Your posts do though seem to carry a fair proportion of contradiction and at times are running with hares, at other times hunting with hounds.

Whatever your angst against me is, then it would probably be better dealt with in some area other than here where people are trying to have a reasonable debate about issues which are likely to affect most of us whilst ploughing.

Doubtless though you are correct in your assertion that my view is not doing me any good. I am well aware of the vindictive retribution in the ploughing world, a sad fact which prevents a very large proportion of ploughmen from revealing their true feelings.

Separate the objective from the subjective and consider our Police. They have radar guns, breathalizers and tread depth gauges for pass or fail. My judge on Sunday Surrey County just said my horribly paired work was nice and straight and good depth. I found half a harrow disc and some sort of tine in the nice dirt, then gained a puncture so did not finish but got a booby prize. Refreshments and lunch were overpriced, wife lost her specs so we are a few hundred quid out of pocket. At least it didn't rain!

Sounds like a normal day to me