Some inspiration from S America

trees planting March 16 053.JPG
 

York

Member
Location
D-Berlin
Perfectly said !! I had to learn it the hard way....

There are many places on the world where too much temperature and/or too much sunlight is the problem and reducing biological activity - if you find a way to reduce temperature in the soil (by loads of residue) and shade the soil/plants (by planting trees) you can boost biology and yields for sure.

On my farm I have basically too low temperature and too low sunshine in 9 from 12 month to make the biology work properly, so too much residue and every single tree will make it worse and you can spot every bigger tree in the hedges on the yield-map !! Here the biggest problem is too much rain at times reducing (drowning) the biology, I need to find a way to get rid of the moisture at many times !!

But: priciples are universal, solutions are local !! That`s still correct and certainly proofs that it can`t work at all to copy solutions from south america when I have totally different problems - took me nearly 10 years and a LOT of money to realize. Still searching for the right solution though.....
Good evening,
try to take part comming week on one of the dates of DLG Roadshow Düngung 4.0. Most likely you will understand the biology thing then.
One meeting near Ahrensburg, south of you.
York-Th.
 

Dan Powell

Member
Location
Shropshire
Weve been working with the Woodland trust. These trees are provided free. Permaculture principles to achieve this silvoforest. https://www.facebook.com/pg/Cwrt-He...8/photos/?tab=album&album_id=1756219544614885. This forest will eventually provide a microclimate, fruit and nut, grazing pasture/growing alleys etc all organic.
Triple like. I would love to do something similar although I'm not convinced in the Mark Shepherd model or keyline water management in the UK. What income streams do you think this will generate or are you doing it for the love of it (which would be valid too IMO). Be great to follow how you get on. Keep us posted.
 
Out of interest, have you visited Martyn Wolfe at Wakelyns Farm? Or Steve Briggs at Peterborough? Both these guys are combining profit-yielding trees and combinable crops and seem to be making it work (although I'll admit I've not seen Wakelyns, but have been to Steve's place).

I know you've an enquiring mind, maybe you ought to take a look and see how they're managing things

Remember I am in Portugal at present so cannot "drop in" to somewhere in the UK.

You post as if I think it is not a good idea. I have already posted that combining trees and other crops has been done for an extremely long time. It works. I have done it. Most of my neighbours do it. I find though, that I produce more and better quality olives from not trying to produce another crop from amongst the trees.
 
Weve been working with the Woodland trust. These trees are provided free. Permaculture principles to achieve this silvoforest. https://www.facebook.com/pg/Cwrt-He...8/photos/?tab=album&album_id=1756219544614885. This forest will eventually provide a microclimate, fruit and nut, grazing pasture/growing alleys etc all organic.

Do you really think that 15 acres will provide a different climate to the area outside it? It is a tiny area. My whole landholding now consists of just about 1 acre more, so I am not decrying the amount of land you farm.

I do know however, from farming much bigger acreages in the past that a block of even several hundred acres fails to affect the climate within and around it, other than the trees shading the ground and so conserving a little more moisture when it is wet - not necessarily a good thing in Britain.

Mark Shepherd (Shepard?) planting a tree to every two square yards (250,000 on 106 acres) is fooling himself and everyone else if he thinks this has any relationship to Keyline. Keyline, is or was, a registered trade mark name of P.A.Yeomans. I have a coouple of his original books bound in a single volume and generously given to me by someone in Australia when I farmed there.

Keyline is essentially a means of delivering and attempting to conserve rainfall on grassland. It needs at least a few hundred, and preferably a few thousand acres to be used effectively. It is a fantastic idea in the right circumstances and with enough land held in one ownership. As I posted at #36, different areas, different climates will give different results.
 
As a follow up to the water fight between my linseed and trees this autumn, we have had plenty of rain now so the linseed plants affected could grow but.......
IMG_20161127_102816770.jpg

The trees are now trying a different tack to kill them.
 
Do you really think that 15 acres will provide a different climate to the area outside it? It is a tiny area.
yes you can make micro climates to the field - this field was chosen for its orientation and improving the wind battering to the rest of the farm further across so we see this as a benefit. Its on a hill too. Growing in the style has taken into account future draughts which we foresee will become longer and more regular. I'm not experienced in this but worked with the Woodland trust and consultant Amelia Lake (keyline etc used successfully on other small farms in France etc but I am not an scientist so can only take note of what information I have been given) however there can only be advantages of growing silvoforestry over traditional orchards. My husband did a lot of reading and a big fan of Geoff Lawton and Martin Crawford he wanted to grow more trees for the future of the farm and will of course benefit the children over us. As far as I know there are very few commercial 'organic' nut growers in the UK most are imported. As for income it will be a good income but unable at this stage give a figure due to factors like when maturity, overheads etc. I will expect to see a good crop of fruit within 5 years which will only be small scale enough for the children to pick and sell (farmgate style). But its another string to our bow. Future production I hope will provide an excellent commercial crop.

As far as we are concerned we are not mono cropping, the 15 acres will provide food and gazing not forgetting improved diversity. I will raise some of these points with the people I have been working with and get some feedback.
 

Dan Powell

Member
Location
Shropshire
Do you really think that 15 acres will provide a different climate to the area outside it? It is a tiny area. My whole landholding now consists of just about 1 acre more, so I am not decrying the amount of land you farm.

I do know however, from farming much bigger acreages in the past that a block of even several hundred acres fails to affect the climate within and around it, other than the trees shading the ground and so conserving a little more moisture when it is wet - not necessarily a good thing in Britain.

Mark Shepherd (Shepard?) planting a tree to every two square yards (250,000 on 106 acres) is fooling himself and everyone else if he thinks this has any relationship to Keyline. Keyline, is or was, a registered trade mark name of P.A.Yeomans. I have a coouple of his original books bound in a single volume and generously given to me by someone in Australia when I farmed there.

Keyline is essentially a means of delivering and attempting to conserve rainfall on grassland. It needs at least a few hundred, and preferably a few thousand acres to be used effectively. It is a fantastic idea in the right circumstances and with enough land held in one ownership. As I posted at #36, different areas, different climates will give different results.
I share your scepticism regarding Mark Shepherd and this use of keyline but not re microclimates. Perhaps we are defining climate differently, but a hedgerow creates a microclimate. Wind speed reduction can reduce evapotranspiration even at a small scale and not just in the shaded areas.
 
15 acres will provide food and gazing not forgetting improved diversity.

15 acres of nuts will provide you with enough to fill more than a few Christmas stockings. I am very interested in "potential" nut yields in the UK. I am, weather permitting, and beginning yesterday, in the process of planting 5 acres to almonds, and will be disappointed if I cannot manage at least a ton an acre within a few years. The potential yield, based on better producers elsewhere is in the order of a ton and a half to the acre.
 
I share your scepticism regarding Mark Shepherd and this use of keyline but not re microclimates. Perhaps we are defining climate differently, but a hedgerow creates a microclimate. Wind speed reduction can reduce evapotranspiration even at a small scale and not just in the shaded areas.

Yes we are using different definitions. I do not consider that windbreaks are affecting the climate of an area, except in so far as they reduce the windspeed.

My idea is that climate over an area of at least a few hundred acres has to be affected.

I accept you consider it differently.
 
From discussions and literature you can provide microclimates in the smallest of gardens, hedges, trees all increased vegetation provides an improved environment. Edge effects, micro life etc.

We will have to wait and see on the yields, buts its the quality not just yields. Didnt we used to have nut trees everywhere in the UK? Not sure the Woodland trust would be planting so many nuts in my forest just to fill a christmas stocking in Chestnuts, walnuts and hazlenuts. I have no almonds.

I have yet to gauge potential nut/fruit incomes but it is another string to our vast bow of pasture fed cows and sheep, groundworks, plant hire, firewood, eggs, solar farm and survival in farming is to spread the risk over more areas. Sometime experimental but I can only see positives from doing this.
 
As I posted to Dan Powell, I have been thinking in terms of bigger areas than you both so far as microclimate is concerned.

I totally agree about quality. It is more important to me than quantity. Quality first, yield second - always. You can always squeeze a bit more yield if you really try, but if you do not have the quality there is no point in more yield.

I try to avoid calculating income, but it is difficult not to think about at times. The only info I have on expectations in the UK, is from way back with a yield expectation of about a ton an acre for hazelnuts. I assume that is monoculture.
 

SFI - What % were you taking out of production?

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Red Tractor drops launch of green farming scheme amid anger from farmers

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As reported in Independent


quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

read the TFF thread here: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/gfc-was-to-go-ahead-now-not-going-ahead.405234/
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