Dodgy committees.

Tonym · Jan 7, 2017

Judging straightness in all the aspects sounds like a good move but could also work against you. At a recent match my neighbour was to say, the least neither straight and 17" out of parallel. I was near the finish by the time it was right so would be penalised for my efforts.
Maybe straightness in all aspects but not judged on your neighbours side?

Ley253 · Jan 7, 2017

Why did you not use the two free straightening runs when you cast out?
I am beginning to think all this blather about straightness is just a get out for questionable judges, its the easiest thing to see, much easier to get right than for example a crown or the overall technical requirements of a good finish. Just make the points worth less, Straightness has always been part of judging so lets remember that, and get back to basics.

Tonym · Jan 7, 2017

Ley253 said:
Why did you not use the two free straightening runs when you cast out?
I am beginning to think all this blather about straightness is just a get out for questionable judges, its the easiest thing to see, much easier to get right than for example a crown or the overall technical requirements of a good finish. Just make the points worth less, Straightness has always been part of judging so lets remember that, and get back to basics.

Without marking your neighbours ploughing or leaving unploughed ground it would take a miracle to do it in two passes. If you managed to straighten it in one pass it would take you at least two more to get it parallel. Only way is to use your poles but you need the stewards permission for that.

Tractor jack · Jan 7, 2017

I have been to a match and my neighbour was so far out I put my poles back up and remarked !!!!! Just spoke to the stewards to make sure they were happy

Howard150 · Jan 7, 2017

There were several reasons why those of us who advocated straightness wanted to see it included as an aspect, none of which the current incumbents seemed to take on board.

It was felt by a number of us that one of the main tenets of ploughing was straightness and that it was not rewarded accordingly.

It was felt by a number of us that when judged as part of any other aspect, work of a similar stature for seedbed and uniformity was awarded a similar level of points regardless of how straight it was.

It was felt that straightness could be dealt with better and more fairly as a single aspect

An increase in points overall has to be better in terms of being able to differentiate more fairly between plots. In a spectrum of only 10 points it is easy to see bunching around 6/7/8. In a spectrum of 20 this is split between 12 and 16 with scope for scores under, over and between which means the actual array could be from 11 to 17.

It was felt that straightness as a single aspect would make the judges task easier, and that it would make scores on the scoresheet far more transparent, the age old question being which is worth more - immaculately turned furrows which are seriously bent or badly turned mismatched furrows which are seriously straight.

The Europeans and the World have both included straightness in their points system for some time. We do not have to include it just because they do, nor do we have to include it in the same manner, nor should we have to use it in a similar manner to that imposed by the SOP. Perhaps they should have added a memory box so that judges can jot down a score as a %age of the score they give each opening and then retrieve it later as and when they judge straightness!

Surely all the fair minded amongst you want to see is the guy who actually wins on the day takes the prize home, not the guy who the establishment wants to win

Ley253 · Jan 7, 2017

All good, but really over complicated. Just add on the extra points( which used to be there) and ditch the position adjustment system( general appearance).Also, get rid of the countback idea, its just a fancy name for result fixing, if competitors have tied, accept that and if there is a qualification involved, then the coin toss could prevail.
What is also needed is some way of making sure the judges do their job properly, and so many dont. All too often plots are foot print free zones yet firmness points are on the score sheets! For myself, when, on the rare occasion, I have been asked to judge, I walk both ends and through the middle, both for the splits and work. much walking, but the result will be as fair as I can make it, and as much of the work as poss has been examined.

Pennine Ploughing · Jan 7, 2017

if you look on the SOP score sheet that i posted, you will see that the opening split is judged on straightness, this is the only aspect that is judged on it merit and straightness together,
Howard 150 says the judges need a memory box to remind them later on, I think you have either not seen that or you don't want to see it,,
and every other aspect is judged on its merits, and straightness is aspect no 8, and while filling this in, it is for the whole of the plot, the full amount of the ploughing that you can see, no need to think back to the opening, as straightness was part of that,
as for GP used as a leveling up of the points, this is far from true, all aspects could be used in the same way, ie if a judge wants a certain man to win, he only need give a point extra in each aspect, to which the same measures could be used in any scoring method,
some people keep going on about the SOP, and the way they do things, I will agree some things could do with changing,
But at this present time they are the only national ruling body, you as far as i can see 3 options,
1 is try to make changes within the SOP, (and slagging them off and calling them names on a public forum will get you no where)
or
say nothing and go along with it
or
start a new national body to set the rules and run in opposition to the SOP

on a personal level, i think a lot of posts on the forum on this and other threads, is really a put down to our hobby,
and is very off putting for anyone wanting to start at ploughing matches, there seems to be a lot of bitching and fighting going on, we are not trying to pull off the biggest robbery of £ 1 million in gold, for heavens sake the prize money dont cover the fuel

Ley253 · Jan 7, 2017

Pennine Ploughing said:
if you look on the SOP score sheet that i posted, you will see that the opening split is judged on straightness, this is the only aspect that is judged on it merit and straightness together,
Howard 150 says the judges need a memory box to remind them later on, I think you have either not seen that or you don't want to see it,,
and every other aspect is judged on its merits, and straightness is aspect no 8, and while filling this in, it is for the whole of the plot, the full amount of the ploughing that you can see, no need to think back to the opening, as straightness was part of that,
as for GP used as a leveling up of the points, this is far from true, all aspects could be used in the same way, ie if a judge wants a certain man to win, he only need give a point extra in each aspect, to which the same measures could be used in any scoring method,
some people keep going on about the SOP, and the way they do things, I will agree some things could do with changing,
But at this present time they are the only national ruling body, you as far as i can see 3 options,
1 is try to make changes within the SOP, (and slagging them off and calling them names on a public forum will get you no where)
or
say nothing and go along with it
or
start a new national body to set the rules and run in opposition to the SOP

on a personal level, i think a lot of posts on the forum on this and other threads, is really a put down to our hobby,
and is very off putting for anyone wanting to start at ploughing matches, there seems to be a lot of bitching and fighting going on, we are not trying to pull off the biggest robbery of £ 1 million in gold, for heavens sake the prize money dont cover the fuel

Quite.
having thought about this, my main concern is that by elevating straightness, you stand the chance of making it the only thing the judges look at, or at least the thing they feel is most important, to a certain extent that has happened to G A. All aspect of each discipline should carry equal weight, but the number of points available should be sufficient to allow this. G A was an afterthought when the effort to come in line with the world, ( the 20 point system, which was to be reduced to ten) started to throw up so many tied results.

Fergie Ploughman · Jan 7, 2017

I tend to try and it gone in a couple of runs, I never leave an unploughed strip but I will happily plough into my neighbours ploughed ground to straighten up. Occasionally I rmeasure and re-peg if it's that bad. I always as a steward before I do it. It's frustrating sometimes in narrow plots to get parallel, but it's part of the skill involved in match ploughing...

Tonym said:
Judging straightness in all the aspects sounds like a good move but could also work against you. At a recent match my neighbour was to say, the least neither straight and 17" out of parallel. I was near the finish by the time it was right so would be penalised for my efforts.
Maybe straightness in all aspects but not judged on your neighbours side?

Mydexta · Jan 7, 2017

I heard this season, that although you get 4 furrows to straighten up and make the plot parallel, you are not allowed to drive onto you're neighbours ploughing and damage their start.

Pennine Ploughing · Jan 7, 2017

Mydexta said:
I heard this season, that although you get 4 furrows to straighten up and make the plot parallel, you are not allowed to drive onto you're neighbours ploughing and damage their start.

your not allowed to damage your neighbors under SOP rules and has been for along time

Roy Stokes · Jan 7, 2017

Mydexta said:
I heard this season, that although you get 4 furrows to straighten up and make the plot parallel, you are not allowed to drive onto you're neighbours ploughing and damage their start.

Correct Euan, that's the rules down here anyway, there has also been cases where a judge has marked down uniformity because of those 2 runs for straightening, apparently the judge thought it was 2 furrows not 2 runs.

Howard150 · Jan 7, 2017

Pennine Ploughing said:
if you look on the SOP score sheet that i posted, you will see that the opening split is judged on straightness, this is the only aspect that is judged on it merit and straightness together,
Howard 150 says the judges need a memory box to remind them later on, I think you have either not seen that or you don't want to see it,,
and every other aspect is judged on its merits, and straightness is aspect no 8, and while filling this in, it is for the whole of the plot, the full amount of the ploughing that you can see, no need to think back to the opening, as straightness was part of that,
as for GP used as a leveling up of the points, this is far from true, all aspects could be used in the same way, ie if a judge wants a certain man to win, he only need give a point extra in each aspect, to which the same measures could be used in any scoring method,
some people keep going on about the SOP, and the way they do things, I will agree some things could do with changing,
But at this present time they are the only national ruling body, you as far as i can see 3 options,
1 is try to make changes within the SOP, (and slagging them off and calling them names on a public forum will get you no where)
or
say nothing and go along with it
or
start a new national body to set the rules and run in opposition to the SOP

on a personal level, i think a lot of posts on the forum on this and other threads, is really a put down to our hobby,
and is very off putting for anyone wanting to start at ploughing matches, there seems to be a lot of bitching and fighting going on, we are not trying to pull off the biggest robbery of £ 1 million in gold, for heavens sake the prize money dont cover the fuel

Once again John how so nearly right you are

There are indeed 3 alternatives
Saying nothing and going along with it, head buried in sand
Starting another National Body.
Changing the existing body.

For me option 1 is a non starter. I will neither go along with it no more than accept it. People of a similar mindset do exist. Are we not to discuss things on forums such as this? Should the farming forum be done away with?

Change the existing national body. As if? In a body where 300 proxy votes can be called up at will, any opposition is summarily dismissed, then get real John whilst this has been my preferred option for a number of years then quite simply it ain't gonna happen and believe you me, there are a lot of good men set out with the intention to change things.

Starting another national body is looking more and more favourable. Never my preferred alternative, it has the potential to overcome what is currently unchangeable nationally.

With regard to straightness, in my view one that of many others, there are definitely four aspects during the ploughing of a plot. It seems alien to me that 75% are simply lumped together as an amalgam whilst 25% is singled out to be judged in an alternative manner.

Both you and I have a right to our opinions however we arrive at them, either by experience or familial or familiar ties. You yourself have been fairly conspicuous by your absence at national AGM's

Both you and I also have a right to express them how we feel best, whether or not it be my direct approach or your more unorthodox round the houses means with a view to coming from behind and tripping up or belittling people. The significance of Did you mean.... obviously went over your head

Dave

Pennine Ploughing · Jan 7, 2017

first off it was never my intention to belittle anyone, and if i have done so then i am sorry if i have come across as that
your right this is an open forum and everyone is in titled to there view, and no i don't think it should be done away with

as for doing nothing but sticking your head in the sand was not really an option for me either, and yes i want changes,
but i do disagree with just blatant slagging off on a public forum, and even you dave use many words that can be taken the wrong way, maybe you should of been a solicitor, as they have a way with words,

as for the AGM`s in the past, your right i have not been till last year, and by the looks of it no body turns up apart from a handful of ordinary members, I did not fill my proxy vote in, instead i went and voted on the day, and really i am glad i did, as being there in person changed my mind and i voted the other way than i would of done on proxy,
and so really up to the members to be there to vote, and see what goes on,
but them that wont go should still be able to use there proxy vote if they so wish

as you may know, this year there will be some big changes, as there will be a good few posts up for re election, therefor a chance for some new blood to enter the system, maybe more so than at any other time in the past,
and i have a feeling that change is about to start, and that is what i think may happen, whether for the better, then time will tell,

as for straightness, its the easier est aspect to judge by a country mile, so really does it need to be done them many times, yes it is important to be straight i will agree,

however a match is judged on straightness, it needs to be easy and straight forward

Howard150 · Jan 7, 2017

Pennine Ploughing said:
first off it was never my intention to belittle anyone, and if i have done so then i am sorry if i have come across as that
your right this is an open forum and everyone is in titled to there view, and no i don't think it should be done away with

as for doing nothing but sticking your head in the sand was not really an option for me either, and yes i want changes,
but i do disagree with just blatant slagging off on a public forum, and even you dave use many words that can be taken the wrong way, maybe you should of been a solicitor, as they have a way with words,

as for the AGM`s in the past, your right i have not been till last year, and by the looks of it no body turns up apart from a handful of ordinary members, I did not fill my proxy vote in, instead i went and voted on the day, and really i am glad i did, as being there in person changed my mind and i voted the other way than i would of done on proxy,
and so really up to the members to be there to vote, and see what goes on,
but them that wont go should still be able to use there proxy vote if they so wish

as you may know, this year there will be some big changes, as there will be a good few posts up for re election, therefor a chance for some new blood to enter the system, maybe more so than at any other time in the past,
and i have a feeling that change is about to start, and that is what i think may happen, whether for the better, then time will tell,

as for straightness, its the easier est aspect to judge by a country mile, so really does it need to be done them many times, yes it is important to be straight i will agree,

however a match is judged on straightness, it needs to be easy and straight forward

As far as words to be taken the wrong way that has never ever been on my agenda, nor to be either condescending or patronising. This is how I write English, as it should be written, oft' times spiced with dialect but god forbid it should ever appear as 'txtspeke'. It is also my considered opinion that all those 'sellin fora frend' on EBay should be shot on two counts - one for bad spelling and grammar, two for the fact that whatever they are 'sellin' is probably stolen or contraband anyway.

We are all free and welcome to post here however the punctuation, grammar or the phrasing. As ploughmen we all know what the gist of a post is. Each to his own.

As far as being a solicitor goes then sorry to dissapoint but I could never reconcile standing in defence of person or persons who are obviously on the wrong side of the law, no matter how lucrative.

A novelist - now there's a thing. I could write tales of skill, of wins and losses, of intrigue and deceit, of battles fought in vain which never could be won. The possibilities are endless.

Ley253 · Jan 7, 2017

Tonym said:
Without marking your neighbours ploughing or leaving unploughed ground it would take a miracle to do it in two passes. If you managed to straighten it in one pass it would take you at least two more to get it parallel. Only way is to use your poles but you need the stewards permission for that.

You cannot drive on your neighbours work, but there is nothing stopping you ploughing a very wide, or even half a furrow against it. To loose your 17" assuming in this case its a straight taper and your at the wide end, casting out. Plough off two furrows, with the front starting wide, run out to one. Thats got it down to about 5" Plough off the one and a half, again running out to one.Your now parallel, take a single if needed to get to size, the single wont show as a single, or shouldnt.

mike.l · Jan 8, 2017

Over in Canada we get the first four furrows on the cast off against your neighbor which are not judged. correct you cannot damage his plowing in any way, but you can narrow the front furrow or widen it as need be to get a start in getting parallel. The second pass you can do what ever it takes to get it parallel and to get your finish width on track, this was told to me by one of our chief judges after a coaching session when he pulled me up for having a few narrow furrows across my plowing ,when i was trying to get the finish width to work out.So the answer is to do whatever it takes in the second pass

Fergie Ploughman · Jan 8, 2017

when I've done it, it's generally a case varying between taking the slightest slither with the rear to taking a mammoth front furrow. I do what I need to do to get straight. I wouldn't really call it damaging my neighbours start....

Pennine Ploughing said:
your not allowed to damage your neighbors under SOP rules and has been for along time

Sprayer · Jan 8, 2017

So if the plots are marked out correctly and the ploughman opens up from peg to peg straight and then keeps his start straight then there should be very little land to lose or gain for his neighbour, so straightness of the start should be marked on its own. It has been said to me on more than 1 occasion that unscrupulous ploughmen have been known to leave a difficult furrow for their neighbours to plough from intentionally, if they lost marks they would try harder.

Ley253 · Jan 8, 2017

Sprayer said:
So if the plots are marked out correctly and the ploughman opens up from peg to peg straight and then keeps his start straight then there should be very little land to lose or gain for his neighbour, so straightness of the start should be marked on its own. It has been said to me on more than 1 occasion that unscrupulous ploughmen have been known to leave a difficult furrow for their neighbours to plough from intentionally, if they lost marks they would try harder.

You can leave a perfectly straight problem furrow if you wish, if your on the end plot and have to put in a false bye. Just move your pegs a bit! I have been left a 24" taper by one of the top Devon men!

Dodgy committees.

Member

Member

Member

New Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

0 %

Up to 25%

25-50%

50-75%

75-100%

100% I’ve had enough of farming!

Share this page