Solar thermal - heatbank question

Jackson4

Member
Location
Wensleydale
Designing a heating system for my house and have a few questions someone might be able to help with
Am probably DIYing it and am pretty sure i'm having a 500ltr vented heatbank with external flate plate heat exchanger for DHW. Was planning to have dirty water in tank heated by back boiler on the fire in winter and 30/40 vac tubes on south facing shed roof, and put either 4 or 5kw of PV on an east facing roof which could be used as an immersion input for the tank also.

1)Can i run the 'dirty' water from heat bank through the solar thermal? It would seem a simple solution and more efficient way of transferring energy than a heatbank with a solar coil, and cheaper.. so can you not just add anti freeze to the dirty water? Will sediment accumulate in the solar tubes? Aren't some solar tubes either just metal fins or sealed units with antifreeze in and are more suited to this idea?

2) My PV idea is integrated and isnt a big difference from buying indian stone to replace the current york stone slates, when you take the overlap and wastage into account on a 20/25/30m2 extension on the back of the house. I want to just fill the space but will there be any extra costs from fitting a bigger than 4kw system.. i wont be bothering with the FiT. Do i have to contact my dno? Being east facing its only likely to produce 3.5 - 4kw anyway.

3) Lastly i have changed my mind were i would like to fit the 500 ltr tank and now want it on my first floor (70kg tank weighs) and have already got beefed up 9 x 4 by 4.5 metre joists in (Architect spect 8x3x4.5) one end on the wall the other 2 x 2bar reinforced concrete lintels at the other.. if i filled in with 4 9 x 4's will that take the weight of the tank or should i put a 8 x 4 rsj under? Will ask my architect to ask a structural engineer but he's always busy, just wanted an idea.
Many thanks.
 

Dave645

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
N Lincs
Designing a heating system for my house and have a few questions someone might be able to help with
Am probably DIYing it and am pretty sure i'm having a 500ltr vented heatbank with external flate plate heat exchanger for DHW. Was planning to have dirty water in tank heated by back boiler on the fire in winter and 30/40 vac tubes on south facing shed roof, and put either 4 or 5kw of PV on an east facing roof which could be used as an immersion input for the tank also.

1)Can i run the 'dirty' water from heat bank through the solar thermal? It would seem a simple solution and more efficient way of transferring energy than a heatbank with a solar coil, and cheaper.. so can you not just add anti freeze to the dirty water? Will sediment accumulate in the solar tubes? Aren't some solar tubes either just metal fins or sealed units with antifreeze in and are more suited to this idea?

2) My PV idea is integrated and isnt a big difference from buying indian stone to replace the current york stone slates, when you take the overlap and wastage into account on a 20/25/30m2 extension on the back of the house. I want to just fill the space but will there be any extra costs from fitting a bigger than 4kw system.. i wont be bothering with the FiT. Do i have to contact my dno? Being east facing its only likely to produce 3.5 - 4kw anyway.

3) Lastly i have changed my mind were i would like to fit the 500 ltr tank and now want it on my first floor (70kg tank weighs) and have already got beefed up 9 x 4 by 4.5 metre joists in (Architect spect 8x3x4.5) one end on the wall the other 2 x 2bar reinforced concrete lintels at the other.. if i filled in with 4 9 x 4's will that take the weight of the tank or should i put a 8 x 4 rsj under? Will ask my architect to ask a structural engineer but he's always busy, just wanted an idea.
Many thanks.
1. The liquid circulating cannot be dirty but, if you run the circulating fluid through a coil or heat exchanger yes you can. So install a heat exchange coil in your dirty water tank and keep the solar clean. In a closed loop.

2. I got velux solar kit without the tank, as they have great flashings so save on roof tiles.
Big is better to a point and how it's setup in theory it's possible to heat multiple tanks with one solar system.
Talk to http://www.jknrenewables.co.uk/
They did mine they were fantastic. I get a saving from even a 10C solar effect. He used coils to feed heat into the cold feed before it goes to my ground source heat pump as long as the tank temperature is above cold feed temperatures it saves me money. I have mains pressure hot water it's great.

3. Ok this is more tricky, tank is only 70kg but full of water it's 570kg static load ( worst type of load) you need a calculation to prove the floor can take it no getting around that, it's not worth the risk.

Like I said talk to http://www.jknrenewables.co.uk/
He was great, solved a lot of my head scratching and most company's had no clue how to setup what I wanted, which used solar to the max by linking my ground source heat pump hot water system to my solar to get maximum benefit, and I have never used my immersion heater despite installing one. It's not even wired up!
It can all be done with correctly speed coils, in your solar store so your tank choice is key. He can help with that.

The store would need upto 3 coils one for your back boiler or dirty return as you suggest, this reduces stratification, but it's cheaper.
1 for solar feed, 1 for hotwater, he did not recommend heat plate for me.
And your backup immersion heater.
Is the back boiler also going to heat rooms or just hot Water?
It also should be well insulated.
If the reason your moving the tank is short tails from the solar of its flexible pipes you can extend in copper it's the flexible nature of the pipes that reduce the max length.
I had an extra coil fitted as a solar dump, this is to stop the tank maxing out with it can do if I leave the dump coil switch off, I got 1000L of water to 95 C .....and the system switches of the solar pump which cooks the fluid which shortens its life. If you had trouble with your back boiler over heating some type of dump may be needed, this could be a radiator which is often added.

If you also have another heating system oil or gas, you could look to add that as well into the store. Have that heat the store rather than the immersion heater in winter or summer. You could have full control.
 

Jackson4

Member
Location
Wensleydale
Thanks Dave interesting stuff, just brushed off my pointing on the chimneys this morning, you think cr*p! scaffold will be round the back monday and so joists/rsj in ceiling will need to be right for store before i can get last 6 foot of skin up and roof on, solar etc... nowt like leaving it to the last minute:D

My thoughts on this are from the perspective that everything is new so i may as well have a simple solution, having a heat bank would save the cost of putting a water tank in the loft (would have to reinforce ceiling there=cost) so just use mains water pressure and a flat plate heat exchanger. Heat banks are cheapest without a coil in so wondered why you couldnt circulate just the one fluid through the radiaters and solar coil manifold? Is this because of rust or sludge build up in the system? It seems an elegant idea as the will be the most efficient heat transfer as there will be no heat exchanger. If not then a single internal coil for solar is probably what i will do and everything thing else on a sealed primary water system.

I'll have a look at the velux kit, its the French gse kit i was looking at and can be found for about £35 a tray so not too expensive (though expensive enough for a bit of recycled plastic)

I think you're looking at it the opposite way to me, i meant have primary water in the tank which never goes anywhere but round the system, radiaters, to and from stove boiler, under floor etc this seems to prevent the problems of furring up of coil internal heat exchangers as the primary water will never change and so minerals (in a hard water area here in the pennines) wont furr up the inside of the coils like you'd find in an old cylinder, an external flat plate would be connected with valves either side and could simply be taken off and back flushed with acid (what was it we used for the parlour one? Phosphoric acid) or taken apart every 5 years etc.

Not moving tank there is no tank so brand new and room it was in is now knocked down, just trying to find the best place for it and space wise first floor in new extension seems best.
Thought about the dump for uncontrollable heat source like solar (practically we are not going to pile the fire full of wood an bugger off though i no all situations have to be accounted for) we should be able to just use the radiaters in the heating system as a dump could we? I did have a few thoughts... have a big greenhouse to go in the back garden next to the shed i'm putting solar on and thought maybe heat store under that? Maybe a bit wild thinking:LOL:

Must go be on till dark with my lambs if i dont get going. I'll have a word later.
 

Dave645

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
N Lincs
It's never simple as you are no doubt finding.
I don't think it's wise to run the same fluids through every thing. It also means a leak with any of them will break the whole system.

You also got the temprature differences to watch under floor systems run far cooler mine run at 27c on a day like this at only 2-3c more your roasting......
The water in my solar tank shares water with my underfloor heating it also goes into my ground source heat pump. but I don't run it that way, it's currently cut off, the only sensors my system has is an outdoor temp sensor, and a water temp for what's being pumped around my underfloor heating. So it auto compensates for temperature demands.
Your problem will be as you have no control over water tempratures entering your underfloor system you risk cooking......and I mean cooking.
If your just using a wood or Coal stove with a back boiler.
You will have trouble from heat expansion if you let high temp water run around your under floor heating. Even in small bumps.

Truly please talk to someone. If you get advise you may get on a scheme, and recive payment with a green deal for your solar. Which should cover the cost of all or part of the install for your solar, over the 7 years the same for ground source or air source, even wood pellet.
New builds need a fraction of the heating old houses need.

With only one store your going to be tied to your desired hot water temprature, and because you cannot use a wood fired stove to heat underfloor direct, your going to need some type of blending valve or similar to only add heat in restricted amounts into the underfloor heating.
This needs to be controllable by room stats and a brain to keep the temperature pleasant. You got to cost all that against something like a ground source heat pump that does it all in one box. And the fact you will earn the install cost back with a green deal.

My only heating bill is my electric bill, my green deal covers that and, I also repay some of the money I spent installing it.

I also fitted and closed wood burning stove. Which has its own external air supply. Which we use when we want, we just set the heating back abit, so we don't cook.

Good luck.
Mine is a passive house it earns me money over it's heating cost.
 
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