Farming without subsidies, is there a way....what's your suggestion.

Location
Devon
Not even on a mixed farm working a rotation?

Most people go into Organic to claim the extra subs you can get for the first 3/5 years, most then find in these years that they either don't have the skills to do it/ they cant keep enough stock on there ground as its so hungry etc without Fert and with very little extra premium for organic stock ( unlike Milk for example ) and when the extra sub money stops the figures don't add up and they then go back to conventional farming.

Most beef/sheep farms around here are low input on their grassland but without the spring application of fert/ being able to intensively farm the arable area on the farm they would have to massively reduce stock numbers and then you are on the start of a slippery slope.
 
Location
Devon
How do you work that one out?

Everything is paid for, no rent or interest,no fert or herbicides, very little hard feed, just silage or hay we make ourselves with old kit. Leave the grass down permanently if you like. Enough sheds now and handling kit.

My mate reckons it costs £300 per year to keep a suckler cow.

The cows can be troublesome if mismanaged in the run up to calving but a lot less risk than spending thousands on the arable then getting too dry or wet and losing money.

I could save more by going down the hay route in blocks of small bales. No expensive plastic, no big loader needed during the winter to move them and plenty of demand here from the horse people for the quality ones. Much prefer small bales of hay here in the sheds during the winter. Can be gaffed up before the neighbour has found his jump leads.

Simple and low cost is way ahead.

There has been plenty of threads on here about the cost of keeping suckler cows, quite a few people claim a really low figure per cow but then when its been pointed out to them they are either ignoring/ forgetting many costs that come directly from their cows their £300 head/ cow soon becomes £500 a cow.

Of all the threads on TFF in the past the only farmers that could keep cows for anything less than £400 head were basically hill farmers ( I think from memory the lowest was £230/head ) that kept the cows out all year around on the moors and other than the odd feed block/ some hay in very harsh weather they are left to fend for themselves.

Out of that £300, your mate has to feed those cows all winter/ replace dead calves/ replace cows/ tags/ silage/ hay/ straw/ costs for running the tractor to feed/ clean out them etc ( unless it runs on thin air ) marketing/haulage costs of £40/50 a calve,RT membership/ costs that go with it, the list goes on.

The best system for sucklers going forward if you have the right land would be to put enough kale etc in to outwinter them on then put this land back to spring corn for straw/ grain to feed the cows on when outside alongside the kale and the barley to feed the calves on from 2/3 weeks old ad lib then push them all summer and sell the calves straight off the cow come autumn, but very few farms will be in the right location/ be dry enough to do this.

Don't forget if subs go and the beef price doesn't rise then calves making £600 now ( which you wont average now on a low input system anyway like you are talking about ) will only be worth £400 head so your low cost system still wont give you a wage.

Also are you really suggesting that farmers should go back to making 5000/10000 small bales of hay a year to feed their animals? im sorry but that will never happen.

Also you are saying that all your kit is paid for and you will keep on mending it until you retire, fine for your situation no doubt but a industry that is on a low cost system where you can just about run old kit and draw a wage but cant re-invest in the farm/ newer machinery etc isn't sustainable in the long term!
 

digger64

Member
There has been plenty of threads on here about the cost of keeping suckler cows, quite a few people claim a really low figure per cow but then when its been pointed out to them they are either ignoring/ forgetting many costs that come directly from their cows their £300 head/ cow soon becomes £500 a cow.

Of all the threads on TFF in the past the only farmers that could keep cows for anything less than £400 head were basically hill farmers ( I think from memory the lowest was £230/head ) that kept the cows out all year around on the moors and other than the odd feed block/ some hay in very harsh weather they are left to fend for themselves.

Out of that £300, your mate has to feed those cows all winter/ replace dead calves/ replace cows/ tags/ silage/ hay/ straw/ costs for running the tractor to feed/ clean out them etc ( unless it runs on thin air ) marketing/haulage costs of £40/50 a calve,RT membership/ costs that go with it, the list goes on.

The best system for sucklers going forward if you have the right land would be to put enough kale etc in to outwinter them on then put this land back to spring corn for straw/ grain to feed the cows on when outside alongside the kale and the barley to feed the calves on from 2/3 weeks old ad lib then push them all summer and sell the calves straight off the cow come autumn, but very few farms will be in the right location/ be dry enough to do this.

Don't forget if subs go and the beef price doesn't rise then calves making £600 now ( which you wont average now on a low input system anyway like you are talking about ) will only be worth £400 head so your low cost system still wont give you a wage.

Also are you really suggesting that farmers should go back to making 5000/10000 small bales of hay a year to feed their animals? im sorry but that will never happen.

Also you are saying that all your kit is paid for and you will keep on mending it until you retire, fine for your situation no doubt but a industry that is on a low cost system where you can just about run old kit and draw a wage but cant re-invest in the farm/ newer machinery etc isn't sustainable in the long term!
There has been plenty of threads on here about the cost of keeping suckler cows, quite a few people claim a really low figure per cow but then when its been pointed out to them they are either ignoring/ forgetting many costs that come directly from their cows their £300 head/ cow soon becomes £500 a cow.

Of all the threads on TFF in the past the only farmers that could keep cows for anything less than £400 head were basically hill farmers ( I think from memory the lowest was £230/head ) that kept the cows out all year around on the moors and other than the odd feed block/ some hay in very harsh weather they are left to fend for themselves.

Out of that £300, your mate has to feed those cows all winter/ replace dead calves/ replace cows/ tags/ silage/ hay/ straw/ costs for running the tractor to feed/ clean out them etc ( unless it runs on thin air ) marketing/haulage costs of £40/50 a calve,RT membership/ costs that go with it, the list goes on.

The best system for sucklers going forward if you have the right land would be to put enough kale etc in to outwinter them on then put this land back to spring corn for straw/ grain to feed the cows on when outside alongside the kale and the barley to feed the calves on from 2/3 weeks old ad lib then push them all summer and sell the calves straight off the cow come autumn, but very few farms will be in the right location/ be dry enough to do this.

Don't forget if subs go and the beef price doesn't rise then calves making £600 now ( which you wont average now on a low input system anyway like you are talking about ) will only be worth £400 head so your low cost system still wont give you a wage.

Also are you really suggesting that farmers should go back to making 5000/10000 small bales of hay a year to feed their animals? im sorry but that will never happen.

Also you are saying that all your kit is paid for and you will keep on mending it until you retire, fine for your situation no doubt but a industry that is on a low cost system where you can just about run old kit and draw a wage but cant re-invest in the farm/ newer machinery etc isn't sustainable in the long term!
I operate the system for keeping cows that you suggest it works well on a small farm, I tend farm our own land as intensively as possible to get max feed produced / acre and hence least cost then carry as many cows as I can outside totally .then rent in rough grazing ,grow small area of barley and maize to grow/ finish calves, culls.Although I am surrounded locally by lots of poor but suitable land that stands effectively idle ,I cannot grow this enterprise because of the present sub system / rent costs hls ,els and cross cmpliance benefits to the landowner means we are stuck waiting for freedom. Ps you are right small bales no way .
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
If you're on land that can produce 10t/ha wheat and 4t/ha OSR regularly then I'm saying that's the way to go- which isn't going to be 'low cost'.

You could produce 3t/ha by cutting cost but what would the point. You'll have the same fixed costs and the extra input will pay for itself.

This brings me back to my original point. If we're losing subsidies then we're going to be at an economic disadvantage so we need to produce our products cheaper (which I think is a point we both agree on) and GM (or how however it's marketed) could be answer.
I don't think it will be the end of the world in the long term. It's just the adjustment period that is the problem

Say I am a 15yo kid and I charge you £8.50 to mow your lawns, clean your spoutings etc. To buy my kid sister new school shoes which aren't in the budget for our poor family. Do you really want change from a tenner?
How about if me/my parents win lotto, buy a £60k car.. do you think more of your change in light of that news?
My fixed costs haven't changed, but your own perception of how much I need £1.50 probably has. 'Tis why the great urban US public doesn't really see the need to buy produce grown in the US, and I feel it's a similar story in the UK, urban population don't care much.

Yes it will be a shake-up
Yes some people won't be able to farm as they do now, unprofitably
Yes it will trim margins, but not only for the farmers, a lot of fat cats in supply chains will take it worse (although they have little or nothing invested in said supply chain)
However;
It would make a lot of innovation necessary
It will make change necessary to marketing your products domestically and overseas
It will drive your input costs lower
More effort will be put into efficiency
More effort will be on developing sustainable systems
More focus will be on profit, not outright production at any cost, reducing supply, increasing farmgate prices in the end.

It's just the 5-8 years in the middle that you all really need to consider, I wouldn't want to be buying a new tractor, renovating, upscaling at the moment. There will be time for all that.
One thing is keeping ahead of all the yuppies with their £££££££ from building houses on all your best land and putting horses on it, with the drop in land prices and the drop in income, it will tempt many out of agriculture
 
You clearly blind to the fact that there will be a £50+/acre difference in cultivation costs for cereal establishment just within the small circle of growers that have commented on this thread.

Possibly more than that!

The trouble with the cereal job is that as a UK grower you are sat atop the pile as the one with the highest variable and fixed costs basically in the world.

Cereal yields have not increased in any way commensurate with the spend required now. At least the dairy boys have had massive improvements in most areas in the last 30-40 years. The arable game is different. The world is swamped with farmers operating on a huge scale with lower yields and a spend probably less than half the typical UK spend. This is not a great position to be in.
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
Possibly more than that!

The trouble with the cereal job is that as a UK grower you are sat atop the pile as the one with the highest variable and fixed costs basically in the world.

Cereal yields have not increased in any way commensurate with the spend required now. At least the dairy boys have had massive improvements in most areas in the last 30-40 years. The arable game is different. The world is swamped with farmers operating on a huge scale with lower yields and a spend probably less than half the typical UK spend. This is not a great position to be in.
Dead right there. In NZ the only ones scratching a living out of grain are the ones in the dead right areas for production. Grass grows cheap...
Has to be flat, has to be alluvial, fertile, the autumn climate has to suit harvesting etc etc, which hugely limits our production. We don't have much for export that I'm aware.. hence it's worth almost £200 for last year's wheat.
It's only because the market isn't swamped, and we aren't close to our neighbours that it's high. Drag us 20 miles from Melbourne and it would lose £50/tonne in a flash. It has little to do with COP or land prices, more what people can afford to pay.
Our good dairy seasons a few years back, crushed feed barley was $460 on contract.. landowner put his herd up from 1 manager, 1 staff for 1 herd of 560.. to 720 cows, extra staff unit, run 2 herds.. all to feed grain in the shed while topping grass to waste.. then the forecast payout drops from $7 something to $5 or below and he suddenly realises he has a stupid stupid consultant and a production based system [emoji17]
Now I know this is barely relevant to cost of UK production, but it has everything to do with rowing in the wrong direction with eyes wide shut. I told him so. My words were, if you want to feed grain to your cows, go overseas and do it!!
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
My words were, if you want to feed grain to your cows, go overseas and do it!!

To be fair my old boss, all he wanted to do was reach his goal of 400/kgMS per cow from a jersey herd. We cut feeding grain to just the shoulders of the season and he did just that. 402kg first season, 431 next season.. but his profitability had a huge increase. Some was down to the weather; but most was down to someone questioning his motives and being prepared to change his ways. Making more money at 5.40 per solid than 7.90.
 
Dead right there. In NZ the only ones scratching a living out of grain are the ones in the dead right areas for production. Grass grows cheap...
Has to be flat, has to be alluvial, fertile, the autumn climate has to suit harvesting etc etc, which hugely limits our production. We don't have much for export that I'm aware.. hence it's worth almost £200 for last year's wheat.
It's only because the market isn't swamped, and we aren't close to our neighbours that it's high. Drag us 20 miles from Melbourne and it would lose £50/tonne in a flash. It has little to do with COP or land prices, more what people can afford to pay.
Our good dairy seasons a few years back, crushed feed barley was $460 on contract.. landowner put his herd up from 1 manager, 1 staff for 1 herd of 560.. to 720 cows, extra staff unit, run 2 herds.. all to feed grain in the shed while topping grass to waste.. then the forecast payout drops from $7 something to $5 or below and he suddenly realises he has a stupid stupid consultant and a production based system [emoji17]
Now I know this is barely relevant to cost of UK production, but it has everything to do with rowing in the wrong direction with eyes wide shut. I told him so. My words were, if you want to feed grain to your cows, go overseas and do it!!
Consulants:rolleyes: , as for the $5.00kg/ms payout, try more like $3.90kg/ms for last season, doubt many could put their hand up to admit they still made a few dollars:unsure:.
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
Consulants:rolleyes: , as for the $5.00kg/ms payout, try more like $3.90kg/ms for last season, doubt many could put their hand up to admit they still made a few dollars:unsure:.
Bet there were a fair few consultants away at the golf course last season [emoji6]
Yeah but think of the tax you'll get back!
Don't worry I won't be paying tax either. Between gold-plated youngstock and no-one wanting to pay a grazier.. been a good first year in business really. To be expected
 

Henarar

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Somerset
Don't forget if subs go and the beef price doesn't rise then calves making £600 now ( which you wont average now on a low input system anyway like you are talking about ) will only be worth £400
Apart from the hay his system don't sound much different to ours and we ave over 600
suck cows like low cost input...........end of
 
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DRC

Member
Anyone, such as @DrWazzock that wants to go go all sucklers is going to have a big investment to get a decent sized herd up and running. 100 cows will be at least £100k, unless your going to take years to build up.
Then if you end up with a gross margin of £200 a cow, you've made £20k before fixed costs, which won't leave much of a wage.
The good doctor has also said his brother and parents live on the farm, so without support, I just don't see how it all adds up.
 

DrWazzock

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lincolnshire
Anyone, such as @DrWazzock that wants to go go all sucklers is going to have a big investment to get a decent sized herd up and running. 100 cows will be at least £100k, unless your going to take years to build up.
Then if you end up with a gross margin of £200 a cow, you've made £20k before fixed costs, which won't leave much of a wage.
The good doctor has also said his brother and parents live on the farm, so without support, I just don't see how it all adds up.

This year with 50% grass/arable we made about £25,000 including BP on £200 acres.

Without the BP we would be faced with a profit of £10,000, that's if prices stay as they are. Nobody is suggesting this will provide a decent living for even one person but I am doing more engineering work which is what I was trained for, either from a base on the farm or even going back full time into industry.

We are still mulling over "what to do with the farm". We can't really keep a wide variety of crops as the overhead becomes a big proportion on small acreages. So how do we reduce complexity, reduce labour, reduce the need for people to be here all year attending to something, harvesting, maintaining, drilling, spraying, loading etc and reduce the risk involved with laying out big arable inputs every year for risk and poor arable returns due to the land being not the best?

One option is to grass it all down. This helps reduce the problem of aged machinery, grain stores that are 200 years old etc, blackgrass and depleted soil reserves and structure. Halves the assurance costs, training costs etc,

Will it add up? Not to much. But it won't if we carry on as we are. We are one big combine breakdown away from the arable being completely unsustainable. We already have to do absolutely everything from accounts to agronomy to lambing to valuation and every operation on the farm.

It has got ridiculous if I'm honest, trying to squeeze a living out of it. It's not much fun anymore.

At least I have something I can do as an alternative, and I'm very glad of that.
 
Location
Devon
Apart from the hay his system don't sound much different to ours and we ave over 600
suck cows like low input...........end of

You are missing the KEY fact that if subs go then suckled calve/ store cattle prices will drop by 20/30% at least so you will only be averaging £400/450 a suckled calve.

Also he is breeding pure bred native calves which when sold as suckled calve's will make a lot less than Contx BBx etc calves that you sell.
 

topground

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
North Somerset.
You are missing the KEY fact that if subs go then suckled calve/ store cattle prices will drop by 20/30% at least so you will only be averaging £400/450 a suckled calve.
@gone up the hill Interested to learn how you have arrived at this figure of a 20 to 30% reduction in suckled calf prices when the sub goes.
What is the rational behind what you describe as a key fact?
 

DrWazzock

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lincolnshire
Alternative might be extensive sheep. We are in the middle of lambing now in a shed intensive old style. Lots of labour and faffing about. then as the year goes on always attending to lameness, flies, mastitis, shearing, drawing out lambs all the way through the summer and beyond.

Cattle go out in March, don't need work all summer. Back in in the autumn, sell the calves in one or two batches, cows live on silage and have calves by following spring, then back out to grass again. So far it seems a lot less hassle than sheep. Just bed up every day in winter and top up the ring feeders every few days. Yes there's work at calving and the odd disaster but it always feels more worthwhile sitting up for a calf than a lamb. It doesnt need an individual pen, bucket of water and all that jazz. Maybe I just don't like sheep!

But still mulling it all over. March 18 is self imposed deadline to get it sorted out.
 
Location
Devon
Interested to learn how you have arrived at this figure of a 20 to 30% reduction in suckled calf prics when the sub goes.
What is the rational behind what you describe as a key fact?

Look at the store cattle trade the last few years in Oct/Nov/ Dec, every year without fail the price ends up on the floor in these months, as soon as the BPS payment lands in the majority of accounts the trade will suddenly jump £100/200 head which then puts it on a good footing for the next few months until the cycle starts again.

Also if subs go then a lot of smaller farmers will either quit or scale back their farming unless the deadweight price goes up to cover the lost BPS income.

Reality is that if all subs went the industry would be in for one hell of a shape up 2/3 years down the line and the likes of what hasn't been seen since the depression of the 1930's.
 

Henarar

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Somerset
You are missing the KEY fact that if subs go then suckled calve/ store cattle prices will drop by 20/30% at least so you will only be averaging £400/450 a suckled calve.

Also he is breeding pure bred native calves which when sold as suckled calve's will make a lot less than Contx BBx etc calves that you sell.
I didn't miss the fact [if it turns out to be one] it just wasn't part of the reply
I was merely saying that suck cows don't like expensive inputs
see plenty plough up the land [wrecking it in the process] and reseeding to put in this crap ryegrass and such like that unless you chase it round with a fert spreader don't grow apart from yellow looking rubbish and if you do throw the fert at it that it demands the grass/silage goes through the cows like there is no tomorrow
the cheap input ie what is growing there with low/no cost is far better
 

caveman

Member
Location
East Sussex.
Clearing out the pure bred natives. Would go down the stabiliser route. Building gradually. Last three years learning, next year start on proper system.

In the event of no subs, I would expect native calves to run on extensive and environmental constrained systems would be just as valuable as they are now.
Those breeds that need a lot of cash thrown at them would be the ones to take the hit.
Whether or not Stabilizers fit in, I wouldn't know.
Having said that. The Kiwis seem to make a good job of Holstein bulls.
 
You are missing the KEY fact that if subs go then suckled calve/ store cattle prices will drop by 20/30% at least so you will only be averaging £400/450 a suckled calve.

Also he is breeding pure bred native calves which when sold as suckled calve's will make a lot less than Contx BBx etc calves that you sell.
You're not really entering into the theme of the thread are you, it's about practical ideas on how you'd run your farm if subs stop. As you're not coming up with any, does that mean you don't have any and that you'd quit if they stopped?

As for the price of calves, if there was no sub cheque influencing the market like you said it does, then you wouldn't need to worry about that, as it wouldn't happen, farmers would start demanding more and not just take what they get, and the native breeds need a hell of a lot less inputs to do well, even though they'd take longer.
 

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