New appointment to roll out whole-farm benchmarking across UK

DrWazzock · Mar 20, 2017

Might be something in it but everybody's farm and soil and rainfall etc is different even in this county so how do they allow for that? My neighbour uses a lot more fuel than we do combining because he has a lot of steep hills etc etc. Five miles from here grass will grow all summer where ours has gone home by July.

I reckon it will show up easy working farms to be higher productivity while difficult to work farms have higher costs. Oh and the Pope's Catholic.

It could possibly be done if you went down the road of dimensionless constants to allow for different soil types and condiitons but then you'll need masses of data and a big computer to calculate it all out.

I don't think some people know much about mathematical modelling and statistics or scientific method.

It'll keep folk busy though.

Brisel · Mar 20, 2017

Flasheart said:
Exactly what I meant by reading between the lines, but useful to us all the same.

I suspect some folks tell fibs and others have no idea what's really going on, but at least getting something for the levy money.

Junk in, junk out.

I went to a Cropbench meeting a couple of weeks ago. A very useful discussion was had with 10 businesses represented. A good range of figures talked about from yields, variable costs, labour and machinery. No land costs discussed which is where a lot of farmers vary. One grower with high chemical costs also had the highest yields. Others had much lower costs but similar net margins.

Sonoftheheir · Mar 21, 2017

I'm all for improving and learning but in my humble opinion there are just too many variables in farming to make bench marking worthwhile.

If you were looking at single enterprises in the business then yes maybe comparing like for like with others could work.

This post at the AHDB is just another to justify their exsistance and create work for themselves.

Brisel · Mar 21, 2017

Too many variables? Seed, fertiliser and spray prices will be similar. You might find out that what you thought was a good relationship with a supplier was actually just a rip off. Look at the chemical price tracker to see how the scales have fallen from some people's eyes as to how much ripping off goes on.

What have you got to lose? A bit of time? What have you got to gain? Sharing ideas, problems and solutions. The industry will get the macro level amalgamated data anyway - buyer A, B or C won't ever be able to see your personal data.

gone up the hill · Mar 21, 2017

DrWazzock said:
Might be something in it but everybody's farm and soil and rainfall etc is different even in this county so how do they allow for that? My neighbour uses a lot more fuel than we do combining because he has a lot of steep hills etc etc. Five miles from here grass will grow all summer where ours has gone home by July.

I reckon it will show up easy working farms to be higher productivity while difficult to work farms have higher costs. Oh and the Pope's Catholic.

It could possibly be done if you went down the road of dimensionless constants to allow for different soil types and condiitons but then you'll need masses of data and a big computer to calculate it all out.

I don't think some people know much about mathematical modelling and statistics or scientific method.

It'll keep folk busy though.

One thing to add to that, take straw costs, in the SE in the arable heartlands straw is what £30/40t, in the SW it is more like £85/95t for barley straw ( due to transport costs/ demand etc ) so our straw prices are going to be a lot higher in the bench marketing figures and realistically there is nothing we can do about that.

Clive · Mar 21, 2017

Anyone who thinks benchmarking is a bad idea should question the irony of them being on TFF

So much of what is discussed here is fundamentally unorganised benchmarking, comparing prices paid, yields harvested or selling prices and asking others how they do things or solve problems etc

#ironic !

Dalos · Mar 21, 2017

We benchmark in dairy through AHDB in a small discussion group of 12 ish where we visit each others farms every couple of years in rotation, we are all farming vastly different farms and systems. there is a mix of organic and conventional, robots, rotaries and herringbones,high yielding and nz style and between 50 cows and 500 cows.

On the face of it you would think that there would be no point in comparing figures as we are so different but it is really helping us all to think outside of the box We meet once a year to discuss our figures so we all quiz if there are figures that look out of place either too good and also too bad, usually there is a good reason for somthing different and it has made me change aspects of the business as you can see that sometimes conventional wisdom is holding you back.

So long as you can understand that Farm A has this set of circumstances and Fram B has these circumstances then you can value these in your head and decide yourself if you are doing better or worse, It does require you to remove the rose tinted glasses and accept that we all have areas that can be improved.

vantage · Mar 21, 2017

Dalos said:
We benchmark in dairy through AHDB in a small discussion group of 12 ish where we visit each others farms every couple of years in rotation, we are all farming vastly different farms and systems. there is a mix of organic and conventional, robots, rotaries and herringbones,high yielding and nz style and between 50 cows and 500 cows.

On the face of it you would think that there would be no point in comparing figures as we are so different but it is really helping us all to think outside of the box We meet once a year to discuss our figures so we all quiz if there are figures that look out of place either too good and also too bad, usually there is a good reason for somthing different and it has made me change aspects of the business as you can see that sometimes conventional wisdom is holding you back.

So long as you can understand that Farm A has this set of circumstances and Fram B has these circumstances then you can value these in your head and decide yourself if you are doing better or worse, It does require you to remove the rose tinted glasses and accept that we all have areas that can be improved.

Very much like our group in SW Wales,I personally have learnt an awful lot and changed the business for the better.

Henarar · Mar 21, 2017

To be honest I don't understand it
unless its when the angle grinder hasn't quite stopped before you put it down

Tarw Coch · Mar 21, 2017

This is reminding me of the scene from Crocodile Dundee, the one where someone mentions one of the characters is seeing a psychiatrist.

Didn't realise she was a bit erm mentally disturbed says Croc

No no, she goes to psychiatrist to talk about her problems

What, Why? Hasn't she got any friends!

I talk to other farmers in the market, at sales, in the pub even on the phone and nowadays even join in discussions on here, it's surprising what gets discussed in amongst friends and you soon learn who the ones who do everything right and nothing wrong are..........there's not a lot of point sharing anything with them.

Sonoftheheir · Mar 21, 2017

Clive said:
Anyone who thinks benchmarking is a bad idea should question the irony of them being on TFF

So much of what is discussed here is fundamentally unorganised benchmarking, comparing prices paid, yields harvested or selling prices and asking others how they do things or solve problems etc

#ironic !

I was bench marking yesterday when I was having a nose in a fellow farmers bag of Maris piper.

AHDB doesn't need to know about it.

SilliamWhale · Mar 21, 2017

Cowabunga said:
Not only do these collected figures get published for all to see but it is sold to our customers.

While many other industries do performance monitor their business, I don't know of any other that is daft enough to let their data be sold by their consultants to their customers, rivals and policy makers and enemies.

I agree. I want to see everyone else' figures but I want to keep mine private!

Cowabunga · Mar 21, 2017

SilliamWhale said:
I agree. I want to see everyone else' figures but I want to keep mine private!

That's not the point I was making of course. The fact is that the aggregate of these figures are sold for a profit by many of the companies and organisations that collate them, without the express permission of those that supply the figures, and to companies and organisations whose purpose may well be to reduce farmer's margins to the lowest level possible commensurate with not forcing too many out of business and thus creating a shortage. Its all basically done to produce food at the lowest possible price, not for the benefit of farmers generally. To pay the least possible money to farmers for their produce whenever the opportunity arises.
Farmers are not the only or even the main income source for those that collate these figures, who pretend that it is to benefit the farmers. They play both sides and sell the information to others who are significantly bigger businesses than farms and who benefit by an order of magnitude from them more than farmers, who ultimately lose out big time from what should be commercially sensitive private information.

Brisel · Mar 21, 2017

Where does it say that the AHDB will be selling your information? Will someone please show me the clause in the paperwork?

Bossfarmer · Mar 21, 2017

on the subject of rainfall how much does this affect profit on an arable farm other than drying costs? also what sort of effect does altitude generally have? im 400-500ft? these things need to go into the data for benchmarking surely?

llamedos · Mar 21, 2017

Ts & Cs here https://farmbench.ahdb.org.uk/Common/TermsAndConditions

via sign up form from the Farmbench site https://farmbench.ahdb.org.uk/Account/Register

Cowabunga · Mar 21, 2017

Brisel said:
Where does it say that the AHDB will be selling your information? Will someone please show me the clause in the paperwork?

No-one does tell you. They just don't.
The people who gather this very valuable commercial information anonymise, group and aggregate the figures into statistics that don't need your permission to sell. They depend on your/farmer's commercial naivety in supplying these figures as part of management packages that are useful for themselves, while not realising that they are far more valuable to others whose best interests may well conflict with their own.

Cowabunga · Mar 21, 2017

llamedos said:
Ts & Cs here https://farmbench.ahdb.org.uk/Common/TermsAndConditions

via sign up form from the Farmbench site https://farmbench.ahdb.org.uk/Account/Register

I'm amazed that farmers that are very competent in their own field of expertise have not realised that this goes on and just how valuable the figures they naively provide is to powerful interests that may well conflict with their own.

llamedos · Mar 21, 2017

Just email them and ask if they sell them.
Simples

Cowabunga · Mar 21, 2017

Brisel said:
I'll repeat the question. Where does it say that AHDB will sell or give participants' data away?

I'm exasperated!

Here is an extract from the AHDB terms whose link was kindly supplied above…..

"AHDB may also use the farmer’s data collected for the Farmbench system for industry analysis. If this data is used, it will be anonymised and no direct or indirect identifier will be published."

You think they include that clause for fun?

New appointment to roll out whole-farm benchmarking across UK

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