Raised beds

KMA · Mar 18, 2017

That's gratifying, though quite often my posts are a cry for help

Plan to get a cheap camera so I can put some pics up, have to get Nell to lift them from my phone and then they turn out sideways :scratchhead:

. Had to re-relocate the gooseberry bushes so I could dig out the drain but they'll probably need relocated again next winter and the springer has destroyed one of my Rasp canes which he mistook for a stick to chew, eventually the fruit and veg area will be dog-proofed but that's for another time.

In your experience what is the best way of laying the drains do I use pea gravel, membrane or what?

Old McDonald · Mar 18, 2017

I have done a lot of draining through contractors but do not profess any expertise. Sometimes gravel has been used and sometimes not. I rather fancy trying the "sleeved" pipe, but a query on here last year about it met with mixed responses. I have about 300 yards that I think will need done at some time hence my query. You definitely do not want a waterproof cover over it.

KMA · Mar 19, 2017

Thanks

The pipe I've got has the normal corrugated outside and a smooth bore so I'm assuming twin wall, its in handy, straight 6m lengths, was planning on 80ish mm which is roughly the same as the bore on the existing clay pipes but nearest they had was 100 which should be more than adequate, it also comes with joints already fitted to one end. Was given a choice of perforated and non perforated (why?) My thinking is pea gravel then a porous mesh then lay the pipe with porous mesh over the top and more pea gravel on top, my thinking on the mesh is to reduce the silt getting into the pipe as there is very little drop from the outflow, in fact there could be none today as we've had 3 fairly heavy days rain.

The other idea I had initially was to lay old 750mm silage wrap cores (3" bore) halved down to 375mm sections which would be pretty much the same as the existing clay tiles, I'm pretty sure it would would work but decided I'd do the job right. I may resurrect that idea in another area where it isn't so critical just to see if it works

KMA · Mar 19, 2017

I've taken some pics so here's a test run

KMA · Mar 19, 2017

surface conditions

Old McDonald · Mar 19, 2017

I see what you mean by "swamp".

I have not seen drainage pipe in 6m lengths, only coils of 100m. Solid walled lengths would not be able to take in water. Also I have not known drainage tiles, pipes or the old stone inverted U shaped ones laid on anything porous. The water would lie in that material and only begin to run when it reached the level of the drain pipe.

I think you might be better taking advice from the wider forum and maybe placing a question in the Agricultural Matters section. There are people on here with a lot more hands on experience than me. I have only done a few hundred metres on my own, always used contractors for the multti-acreage jobs.

KMA · Mar 19, 2017

I'll put pics of the pipes up tomorrow and will be easier for me to work with than the 50m coils. fortunately I've only 47' to lay at a time the slog is going to be digging the trench. Don't fancy doing your 300m even with a digger.

I'm really interested to hear you need land drainage in Portugal, I always think of it as being hot and dry. Land drainage is a new experience to me, I've spent most of my life on a place where the knows often burnt out in May.

Found this interesting
www.collectionsgateway.org.uk/collections/8/field_drainage_tiles.pdf

New Puritan · Mar 22, 2017

Old McDonald said:
If I thought it was boring I would not have asked about it. You have at least one interested reader, probably more.

Just to offer encouragement, I'm enjoying this thread too...

KMA · Mar 22, 2017

Thanks, after 4 days and nights of persistent rain/hail all hopes of getting anything done near the drain/raised bed are on hold.

Got the new fence up and the gate hung as well as possible (old hinges fixed into an older wall) at the garden entrance. Started putting a fence round the kero tank but need to check funds before I go for more rails. Got a couple of yards of old dry-stone wall to finish stripping out before I start rebuilding it.

The feeder holder I made yesterday has had 12 different species visiting it in the last 24hrs including some we rarely see. The jackdaws seem to have been discouraged but one of of the rooks is f**king persistent and hangs upside down on the holder to grab a beakful of fatballs before taking off, quite amusing but if he doesn't cease and desist I'll take stronger measures.

KMA · Mar 26, 2017

couple of days of dry and I've done the other stuff on the higher ground so back to the trench and digging up the line of the drain. Nell is going to put some pics on here just to show clueless lazy short-cutting pansies aren't a recent phenomenon. Once they're up I'll explain what I think is happening

Nell · Mar 26, 2017

Some of the photos of the drains that KMA is trying to excavate. You can see the change in direction and, inexplicably, size. The random rock is about 3.5 - 4 inches and was found packed up against the tile drain and a random roof slate. We thought they were awful patch repairs but we're not certain. The latter photos show the boulder size foundation stones (and the mog, for scale) of the dry stone wall that was originally where the new post and rail fence is.

KMA · Mar 26, 2017

Thanks Nell

Pic 1 is what looks like an old 'dead' house drain stops directly above the old clay tile drain which has been broken into and covered with slates and broken tile. The top of the 'house drain is barely 4" below the surface.

Pic 2 shows the two different size tiles with the larger tile finishing just after the 'house' drain and feeding into the smaller tile the first of which has been shoved into shoved inside the bigger tile, again it's been broken and covered with a couple of bits of slate.

Pic 4 is the stuff that has been spread on the slope out of the garden sometime in the past and has now migrated downhill.

Pic 5 is the kind of stuff I'm digging up when trying to sort the area to the side of the slope.

The garden will be a pleasant, enjoyable, productive place...........eventually. Right now every time I put a spade in the ground I seem to find more problems I need to sort before I can get back to the job the made me lift the spade in the first place

Pasty · Mar 28, 2017

Does anyone use higher beds, say waist height so you don't have to get down so far? I was thinking something like old concrete panels or similar. Then half fill with rocks, then soil. Or would that cause issues with drainage / soil moisture?

Old McDonald · Mar 28, 2017

@Pasty They are quite common. Most of the ones I have seen around the world have been for ornamentals rather than veg, but terraces are often made so that they are worked at waist height.

To the best of my knowledge they are soil filled. Why put rocks in the botttom? Waist height soil is not that much depth. Making a rock barrier, through which the plants would need to send their roots without obtaining any nourishment is just making life difficult for the plants.

KMA · Mar 28, 2017

I've seen quite a few waist high beds but don't really see the point for most plants, not withstanding that link OM posted. my beds will be 18" high with the option to go up another 7" if I feel thee need, I'm also trenching so total soil depth will be nearly 4' any deeper and they'll be at the water table. I look forward to experimenting and learning even more once I actually have the beds built, which at this rate isn't going to be any time soon.

Old McDonald · Mar 28, 2017

I would say that if you are at a permanent water barrier at 4 feet then you need to raise your beds more - or drain of course!!. Roots will die if the soil is above saturation point.

There is no way around this. Waterlogged soil, or slurry, as it would be, cannot support terrestrial plant life. I know about hydroponics, but that is a controlled means of soilless culture.

Pasty · Mar 28, 2017

Old McDonald said:
@Pasty They are quite common. Most of the ones I have seen around the world have been for ornamentals rather than veg, but terraces are often made so that they are worked at waist height.

To the best of my knowledge they are soil filled. Why put rocks in the botttom? Waist height soil is not that much depth. Making a rock barrier, through which the plants would need to send their roots without obtaining any nourishment is just making life difficult for the plants.

That's an interesting thought. Plenty of steep around here.

KMA · Mar 29, 2017

I'll just have to try it and see, I may just have to modify what I grow. The water seems to have settled at 22" below the current soil level, add another 18" for the raised beds gives 40" with another 7" possible. What is rewarding is that the boggiest bits of the swamp are a lot firmer than they were even though I haven't finished the trenches, let alone laid any drains. I reckon 3' of soil should be adequate for most of the veg I plan to grow.

jade35 · Mar 31, 2017

Just a thought KMA but has your drain in picture 1 been converted into a soakaway for the house at some time? If it is taking all the roof water it would explain why the area is so wet

KMA · Mar 31, 2017

Always a thought but I don't think so, its been chucking it down for over 4 days now, that drain is still bone dry and doesn't go anywhere near the swampy bits. In spite of all the rain the soil below the gloop seems pretty sound so at least I seem to have done some good. I will track the fireclay back once I've got the new drains in and I have a bit more time. All the waste water and sewerage goes about 120 degrees in another direction.

The problem seems to be the top couple of inches of the soil which seals itself. Had a wee dig to let some surface puddles drain into the trench and the soil isn't too bad once you get through the gloop. Still feel no nearer to getting the beds in

Raised beds

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