Owen Paterson nails his colours to the mast

ski · Apr 24, 2017

Out of chaos comes order. We are in the void now and for some it is difficult to see, imagine , want or believe in something different. This affects those who are benefitting from the current state of affairs. Land will be farmed by someone be it stock, crops or trees. Those who have accrued under a system will mostly favour the continuation of the current system even when it is obvious the old system is failing.

Chaos (Greek χάος, khaos) refers to the formless or void state preceding the creation of the universe or cosmos in the Greek creation myths, or to the initial "gap" created by the original separation[clarification needed] of heaven and earth.[1][2][3]

Brisel · Apr 24, 2017

JP1 said:
Bit insensitive that post IMO

I've edited it to make it less personal to Glasshouse. I stand by the rest of the content.

Brisel · Apr 24, 2017

ski said:
Out of chaos comes order. We are in the void now and for some it is difficult to see, imagine , want or believe in something different. This affects those who are benefitting from the current state of affairs. Land will be farmed by someone be it stock, crops or trees. Those who have accrued under a system will mostly favour the continuation of the current system even when it is obvious the old system is failing.

Chaos (Greek χάος, khaos) refers to the formless or void state preceding the creation of the universe or cosmos in the Greek creation myths, or to the initial "gap" created by the original separation[clarification needed] of heaven and earth.[1][2][3]

Very philisophical!

What do you mean by the old system?

I disagree with one sentence - "Land will be farmed by someone be it stock, crops or trees." There is no guarantee of that. Planting with trees is the most likely scenario IMO. There is little money in it now - with Patterson's view there will be no support for domestic production and unlimited imports. We'll have third world prices and first world costs. Sure, many will adapt to differentiate UK farm goods so it doesn't directly compete with bland global commodities like the beef from the thousands of cattle in that link but not all will. Who is going to want to farm marginal land in the mountains? George Monbiot will get his "rewilding" but only by the neglect of thousands walking away from unviable land.

Blaithin · Apr 24, 2017

milkloss said:
Doesn't @Blaithin have something to do with feedlots? Would be interested if you have any comment

What do you want to know? Haven't really been reading this thread to be up to date with it

Hilly · Apr 24, 2017

Blaithin said:
What do you want to know? Haven't really been reading this thread to be up to date with it

Are feedlots good/bad/beautifull/ugly ?

limestone brash · Apr 24, 2017

Most Farmers voted for Brexit so most farmers must want an end to subsidised farming in the UK
In the words of Mr Farage- "We're the turkeys who voted for Christmas"

Blaithin · Apr 24, 2017

Hilly said:
Are feedlots good/bad/beautifull/ugly ?

They do the job of meeting demand in the quickest way possible with the least amount of feed inputs. However their high density housing is stressful on animals and requires their health to be carried along by various things - feed supplements, prophylactic drugs, etc.

Don't know if anyone that would call them beautiful. They're ugly, smelly things.

easy farming · Apr 24, 2017

Goweresque said:
I keep telling you, this is the way its going to be, eventually. And its not just Free Trade Tories that will be gunning for farm subsidies, it'll be Anti Wealthy Farmer Leftists too. From whichever side of the political divide is in power in the UK post Brexit there will be a massive desire to cut farm subsidies and open up UK markets to the cheapest imports the world has to offer.

Because its a win/win for politicians - cut spending on something unpopular (or at least not popular enough for anyone to complain about it being cut), and give the money to something else more electorally appealing (schools'n'hospitals etc). And at the same time allow in imports to ensure prices don't rise too much, maybe even fall.

The only subsidies left will be the Green ones, and the hoops to jump through to get them will be many and complicated.

Its whats going to happen, prepare for it.

Agree with you, where else will be easier to get the money from for pension and social care costs.

glasshouse · Apr 24, 2017

Goweresque said:
How about walking a mile in the shoes of the landowner who rented his asset to a man in good faith and suddenly discovered that he couldn't get it back for 3 generations? I know people who lost a good deal of the wealth they'd built up through a life's work due to the retrospective introduction of 3 generation tenancies. Landowners are people too you know, not cartoon caricatures of Evil Capitalists as some would like to make out.

Most landlords "wealth" has been thieved from generations of tenants who turned the land from scrub to arable.
3 generation tenancies simply returned that wealth to those who created it.

DrWazzock · Apr 24, 2017

DIfficult as it is, the reduction of support for UK agriculture is on its way and would have been even with no Brexit due to virtual bankruptcy of EU nation states.

There will be adjustments in rents and supply side costs if not in commodity prices, new ways of working and such like.

To be honest I welcome it. The present system of subsidisation has created a Byzantine layer of needless constraint and hinderance, inflation of supply costs and land prices, parasitical organisations and laziness and apathy in general.

Bring it on.

Brisel · Apr 24, 2017

DrWazzock said:
DIfficult as it is, the reduction of support for UK agriculture is on its way and would have been even with no Brexit due to virtual bankruptcy of EU nation states.

There will be adjustments in rents and supply side costs if not in commodity prices, new ways of working and such like.

To be honest I welcome it. The present system of subsidisation has created a Byzantine layer of needless constraint and hinderance, inflation of supply costs and land prices, parasitical organisations and laziness and apathy in general.

Bring it on.

Welcome back, Dr Wazzock!

The issue lies with the parasites continuing to suckle at the farm teat until it is completely dry, killing the mother that can no longer produce the milk.

Hilly · Apr 24, 2017

Brisel said:
Welcome back, Dr Wazzock!

The issue lies with the parasites continuing to suckle at the farm teat until it is completely dry, killing the mother that can no longer produce the milk.

Some times to make something great you first have to destroy it.

Goweresque · Apr 24, 2017

DrWazzock said:
The present system of subsidisation has created a Byzantine layer of needless constraint and hinderance, inflation of supply costs and land prices, parasitical organisations and laziness and apathy in general.

Thats it, until the subs go we have no idea who is getting the most benefit from them. Like you I suspect a lot of it ends up in the supply chain, and maybe some of it in the consumers pocket via lower prices. When they go we'll know exactly what food costs to produce and what people will have to pay for it. Then maybe there'll be the basis for a sustainable industry, not one based on a drip feed of subsidy money.

milkloss · Apr 24, 2017

Goweresque said:
When they go we'll know exactly what food costs to produce and what people will have to pay for it. Then maybe there'll be the basis for a sustainable industry, not one based on a drip feed of subsidy money.

I'm not sure why farmers in general are so convinced the public will have to pay for our higher cost of production. Can you explain?

limestone brash · Apr 24, 2017

Hilly said:
Some times to make something great you first have to destroy it.

This was Chairman Mao's justification for the cultural revolution !

JP1 · Apr 24, 2017

limestone brash said:
This was Chairman Mao's justification for the cultural revolution !

Or even The Donald's credo now ........

Goweresque · Apr 24, 2017

milkloss said:
I'm not sure why farmers in general are so convinced the public will have to pay for our higher cost of production. Can you explain?

It depends on the markets for different products - some things they probably won't have to pay more for if UK production drops, such as grains, other things like milk they will have to pay more for if production drops. It'll all come down to import penetration and availability (and the level of sterling) vs UK production levels. The current price system is out of whack due to the subsidies distorting everything so until they go we won't know how prices and production levels will respond. We also don't know how much the supermarkets will want to maintain UK based supply chains, and how much the UK public will tolerate non-UK food supplies or if they are prepared to pay more for UK based production.

turbo · Apr 24, 2017

glasshouse said:
Most landlords "wealth" has been thieved from generations of tenants who turned the land from scrub to arable.
3 generation tenancies simply returned that wealth to those who created it.

Spoken like a true socialist,whats yours is mine and what mines my own.What part of it belongs to someone else don't you understand,if you want to farm it for ever you should of bought it instead of letting someone else put their money in to it.

JP1 · Apr 24, 2017

turbo said:
Spoken like a true socialist,whats yours is mine and what mines my own.What part of it belongs to someone else don't you understand,if you want to farm it for ever you should of bought it instead of letting someone else put their money in to it.

From my limited memory, I think it may be that @glasshouse feels aggrieved for what he "invested" in his farm over the years

glasshouse · Apr 24, 2017

turbo said:
Spoken like a true socialist,whats yours is mine and what mines my own.What part of it belongs to someone else don't you understand,if you want to farm it for ever you should of bought it instead of letting someone else put their money in to it.

Have you been drinking?

Owen Paterson nails his colours to the mast

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100% I’ve had enough of farming!

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